commercial/non residential/amish power required?

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steve12768

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Grand Rapids, MI
IN the state of Michigan, the residential code reads (paraphrasing), "IF a building has power, you are required to follow the electrical code guidelines...). That is how the Amish get away without having power.

My question is this: The Amish have an auction house. it does have a pump motor that is powered by gas that may require servicing. It is a "place of assembly" since on any given day or night there may be 50-100 people in there. what is the lighting requirements and code references for general lighting and egress lighting. All of our codes ASSUME a building has power. This would be classified as a commercial building since it is not a residence. Is it required to have power at all?
 
The minimum in the building code is, one foot candle at the floor along the path of egress to the public way. With 50-100 people you are also required to have lit exit signs and back up power at the exterior landings of all exit doors. I'm sure there's some other things I could think of.
 
steve12768 said:
IN the state of Michigan, the residential code reads (paraphrasing), "IF a building has power, you are required to follow the electrical code guidelines...). That is how the Amish get away without having power.

My question is this: The Amish have an auction house. it does have a pump motor that is powered by gas that may require servicing. It is a "place of assembly" since on any given day or night there may be 50-100 people in there. what is the lighting requirements and code references for general lighting and egress lighting. All of our codes ASSUME a building has power. This would be classified as a commercial building since it is not a residence. Is it required to have power at all?
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First Let me welcome you to the forum:thumbsup:

Being in Indiana not far from you, we have a large area of Amish to the east of me about 40 miles, many time this was discussed at state level at our meetings as to what can or should be enforced.

We came to the agreement that people have the right or should have the right in America to live there lives as dangerous as they see fit, but they do not have the right to endanger the lives of others, we can't put Americans in a padded room because some of the things we do are dangerous, most sports would not be allowed if we did, this is why many states have what we call a log cabin law that allows a homeowner to do work on there house that is their primary dwelling, but on the same token they would not be allowed to work on another's property that could put them in danger.

With that said, if this building is used for public auctions then I would strongly agree that it should comply with all the codes that any commercial building would, just because they do not have the right to endanger others of the public.

Now what is required in the state of Michigan, I have no idea???
 
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cowboyjwc said:
The minimum in the building code is, one foot candle at the floor along the path of egress to the public way. With 50-100 people you are also required to have lit exit signs and back up power at the exterior landings of all exit doors. I'm sure there's some other things I could think of.
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Thanks for the quick reply gentlemen. (wait a minute, inspectors "gentleman"? ;-) ), that is basically what I was thinking as well, however the only "what if" I was wondering was if there was a loop hole in commercial work similar to the "IF power is supplied" it is required 1 ft candle, exit signs, etc because all of these various codes assume a building has power.
But that is the answer I will give the customer.
 
steve12768 said:
Thanks for the quick reply gentlemen. (wait a minute, inspectors "gentleman"? ;-) ), that is basically what I was thinking as well, however the only "what if" I was wondering was if there was a loop hole in commercial work similar to the "IF power is supplied" it is required 1 ft candle, exit signs, etc because all of these various codes assume a building has power.
But that is the answer I will give the customer.
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We won't tell anyone that you called us gentlemen. :happyno:

Kind of an interesting question. Don't really have that around here and also we have laws that say that if power is availible (sewer and water also) that you must be connected to it. Even if you had solar and batteries to run your home, you still have to be connected to the grid.

As hurk kind of mentioned, there may be laws on the books that address the Amish specifically, but I do know that they do have to do things like put reflectors on their buggies if they are driving them on public roads.

Sitting here really thinking about it, I wouldn't even have a clue as to who you would call to find out. Are they exempt from building codes and such?
 
Several states have laws written with the Amish in mind. When I lived in NW Missouri our state representative, after meeting with local Amish groups, wrote a bill requiring a battery-powered flashing light on horse-drawn vehicles operated at night, along with the reflective SMV sign. This was after a car swerved onto the shoulder of a road one night and hit a buggy, killing a young couple.

Amish bishops there have allowed a small solar array be installed to power a cash register at a dry-goods store. Lots of windows for light, and high-efficiency light tubes where there can't be windows. Luminous exit signs.

Only place I saw for this Amish group to assemble is a barn. After seeing the way some farmers do wiring, a barn without power might actually be safer. :D
 
if the building doesn't have power, there is no chance of it suddenly loosing power and suddenly becoming dark.

I would assume there are windows designed into the building, and it is probably only used by the public during daytime.

I don't see a problem with not having power.
 
steve66 said:
if the building doesn't have power, there is no chance of it suddenly loosing power and suddenly becoming dark.

I would assume there are windows designed into the building, and it is probably only used by the public during daytime.

I don't see a problem with not having power.
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yes! what he said x2!
 
grich said:
After seeing the way some farmers do wiring, a barn without power might actually be safer. :D
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Off topic for a second: This statement reminds me of a guy who said his wife's credit card was stolen. He said he hadn't reported it yet as stolen because the "thieves" were spending way less than his wife did!

Back on topic: We have laws here for the "buggies and such", but the majority of these folk here are a different branch of Amish and do use electricity.
So there is really no amendment to the code that I know of that pertains to them.

But, in short, usually if a building is not in the city limits the county codes don't require a building to have power.
 
You'll do much better getting the Fire Marshal or Building Inspector to intervene than trying to do something through the Electrical Inspector or electric code. Building & Fire codes have the requirements for egress, means of egress identification, means of egress illumination, etc. The electric code tells you to do it safely when you're doing it.
 
steve66 said:
if the building doesn't have power, there is no chance of it suddenly loosing power and suddenly becoming dark.

I would assume there are windows designed into the building, and it is probably only used by the public during daytime.

I don't see a problem with not having power.
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I have a problem with it.

If the building is open to the general public there is no just reason for the Amish to able to skip doing what any other group would have to do.
 
steve12768 said:
Thanks for the quick reply gentlemen. (wait a minute, inspectors "gentleman"? ;-) ), that is basically what I was thinking as well, however the only "what if" I was wondering was if there was a loop hole in commercial work similar to the "IF power is supplied" it is required 1 ft candle, exit signs, etc because all of these various codes assume a building has power.
But that is the answer I will give the customer.
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My take on it is you can not make them have electric power. If they have public access then I can understand minimal lighting requirements, emergency egress requirements and such, but why would/should the light source have to be electrical energy driven?

How many outdoor public venues are there that have no electric lighting or very limited lighting and are only open during the day?

cowboyjwc said:
We won't tell anyone that you called us gentlemen. :happyno:

Kind of an interesting question. Don't really have that around here and also we have laws that say that if power is availible (sewer and water also) that you must be connected to it. Even if you had solar and batteries to run your home, you still have to be connected to the grid.

As hurk kind of mentioned, there may be laws on the books that address the Amish specifically, but I do know that they do have to do things like put reflectors on their buggies if they are driving them on public roads.

Sitting here really thinking about it, I wouldn't even have a clue as to who you would call to find out. Are they exempt from building codes and such?
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You are also forgetting you are in California where building codes never seem to make any sense:p

I don't see how any city or village can make you connect to electric, water, or sewer. I can see how they can prohibit you from drilling a well or installing a septic system though.

grich said:
Several states have laws written with the Amish in mind. When I lived in NW Missouri our state representative, after meeting with local Amish groups, wrote a bill requiring a battery-powered flashing light on horse-drawn vehicles operated at night, along with the reflective SMV sign. This was after a car swerved onto the shoulder of a road one night and hit a buggy, killing a young couple.

Amish bishops there have allowed a small solar array be installed to power a cash register at a dry-goods store. Lots of windows for light, and high-efficiency light tubes where there can't be windows. Luminous exit signs.

Only place I saw for this Amish group to assemble is a barn. After seeing the way some farmers do wiring, a barn without power might actually be safer. :D
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And before there was electricity in barns kerosene lanterns were pretty popular way to bring light in there, but those never caused any fires did they?



If you are required to install electric power but don't pay the electric bill, you end up not having power anyway.

Same with water and sewer from a municipal system.

Around here you could build a structure with no power. If you want power from a utility you have to file an electrical installation permit. If this were a public access building you would still need to meet some lighting standards for minimal lighting and emergency egress, but those would not necessarily be required to be electric lighting. Most cities and towns would not allow you to install a well or septic system within a certain distance from their municipal wells in the interest of protecting the municipal water system from potential contamination, and not so much that they think you have to be on their system.

I am not even going to comment on the Amish, other than there are some around here but their rules of what modern conveniences are acceptable doesn't really make any sense at all. They can't have electric power from a utility company, but solar power or on site generators are acceptable
 
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kwired said:
How many outdoor public venues are there that have no electric lighting or very limited lighting and are only open during the day?
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I've been required to put up lighted exit signs in a large tent (maybe 60'x120') that was completely open on three sides. Needed one every 30' or something like that. Maybe it was because there were festoon lights overhead; don't know, didn't argue.
 
Here in PA there are definitely exemptions for Amish. Normally, you couldn't get an occupancy permit without electricity to a house, but they can. They're not allowed to rip it out if it's installed, but they can have the POCO boot the meter. I can't think of any Amish stores with lit exit signs, but you could certainly install a solar powered one.

I think the argument that without electrical power, it's more unlikely for a building to be plunged into darkness is valid. This would certainly affect the need for exit signs, egress lighting etc. Plus, in a room with 150 Amish, if the lights do go out, there will probably be about 158 flashlights and headlamps out in about 2 seconds ;)
 
PetrosA said:
Plus, in a room with 150 Amish, if the lights do go out, there will probably be about 158 flashlights and headlamps out in about 2 seconds ;)
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Wait, there is only 150 in there and 158 flashlights. Must be some "strangers" in their midst!;)

6 building inspectors, 1 fire marshall, and 1 electrical inspector.:lol:
 
steve66 said:
if the building doesn't have power, there is no chance of it suddenly loosing power and suddenly becoming dark.

I would assume there are windows designed into the building, and it is probably only used by the public during daytime.

I don't see a problem with not having power.
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Agree, if power is not supplied then it cant be suddenly lost.
The premises might only be used in daylight, and IF used after dark would presumably be equiped with suitable oil lamps or candles for convienience.
Although oil lamps and candles can be a fire risk, they have one merit over electric lighting in that each light source is self contained and a total, sudden lighting failure simply cant happen.

With a little care, oil lamps can provide safe and reliable lighting, usually best placed out of reach, but not so high up as to make cleaning, filling, and lighting awkward.
 
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