commercial/non residential/amish power required?

[kwired]

Agree, if power is not supplied then it cant be suddenly lost.
The premises might only be used in daylight, and IF used after dark would presumably be equiped with suitable oil lamps or candles for convienience.
Although oil lamps and candles can be a fire risk, they have one merit over electric lighting in that each light source is self contained and a total, sudden lighting failure simply cant happen.

With a little care, oil lamps can provide safe and reliable lighting, usually best placed out of reach, but not so high up as to make cleaning, filling, and lighting awkward.

If gas lamps are used and the gas supply fails then you can have sudden loss of light.:happyyes:

If oil lamps are all filled and started at same time and burn at same rate they should all run out of oil about the same time, but the odds of them all failing simultaneously are not that great.

If on site generators are used for lighting - which the Amish around here seem to have no issues with having electricity from a local source, just not from the utility, then you still can have sudden loss of light if the generator or something in the electrical system fails.

 

[broadgage]

Yes lighting from a generator, or a propane tank, or natural gas can fail suddenly.
A generator is usually less reliable than utility service.
A propane tank should be perfectly reliable if checked frequently to ensure that enough remains, this is unfortunatly reliant on the human element which is often found wanting.

Natural gas service, in the UK at least, is much more reliable than utility electrical supply, and in the rare circumstances of premises entirely gas lit this is often considered acceptable without any standby lighting.

In the case of oil lamps, they are most unlikely to all run out of oil at the same time.
Most types burn for at least 10 hours on one filling, therefore a difference of just 10% in the amount of oil put into each lamp would give an hours warning or more between the first lamp running out and the last lamp running out.
In practice the oil consumption varies according to exactly how high the wick be turned up, which will vary from one lamp to the next.
Add to that the fact in most cases oil lamps tend to be a "job lot" with varying oil capacities, and the risk is negligable.

 

[iwire]

Here in PA there are definitely exemptions for Amish. Normally, you couldn't get an occupancy permit without electricity to a house, but they can.

That is their home and I agree with that.

But we are talking about a business venture open to the general public. There should be no free pass.

 

[steve66]

That is their home and I agree with that.

But we are talking about a business venture open to the general public. There should be no free pass.

I'm not sure its a free pass, since they choose not to install any electricity at all.

If the IBC is in effect, and if the building is considered a use group "U" (barns, livestock buildings, utility buildings and sheds, etc.) then no lighting or exit signs are required.

I think its up to the local AHJ to decide if the building can be considered use group "U".

50-100 people in it at one time does complicate the issue.

 

[petersonra]

People know what is going on when they get involved in either being Amish, staying Amish, or associating with the Amish in some way.

There does not appear to be an actual demonstrated risk in not having electrical service or exit lights in an Amish auction barn.

The worst that should happen is that they put up a sign stating that due to the religious beliefs of the owners that the barn does not meet the standards normally required of such facilities so people can make an informed choice.

In any case, do they have auctions when it is dark out? I doubt it, so why would they need exit lights?

 

[kwired]

People know what is going on when they get involved in either being Amish, staying Amish, or associating with the Amish in some way.

There does not appear to be an actual demonstrated risk in not having electrical service or exit lights in an Amish auction barn.

The worst that should happen is that they put up a sign stating that due to the religious beliefs of the owners that the barn does not meet the standards normally required of such facilities so people can make an informed choice.

In any case, do they have auctions when it is dark out? I doubt it, so why would they need exit lights?

Part of the problem here is if you disallow that, you are not giving them their constitutional rights of religious freedom, but if you do allow it, what is to stop anyone from suddenly having religious practices that don't recognize building codes, or other laws? A line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[kwired]

I'm not sure its a free pass, since they choose not to install any electricity at all.

If the IBC is in effect, and if the building is considered a use group "U" (barns, livestock buildings, utility buildings and sheds, etc.) then no lighting or exit signs are required.

I think its up to the local AHJ to decide if the building can be considered use group "U".

50-100 people in it at one time does complicate the issue.

Yes you can have 50-100 people in a "barn". Good examples of when this happens frequently is petting zoos, livestock sale barns, the county fair...

 

[jim dungar]

Amish does not mean 'anti-electricity'.
Amish typically shun connections to the electrical grid, especially in their residences.

I have worked with 'plain people' electricians.

Hey, you can trust what you read on the internet, can't you?
http://amishamerica.com/why-do-amish-restrict-technology/


Maybe the OP needs to look at 'atomic exit lights'.

 

[iwire]

I'm not sure its a free pass, since they choose not to install any electricity at all.

If the IBC is in effect, and if the building is considered a use group "U" (barns, livestock buildings, utility buildings and sheds, etc.) then no lighting or exit signs are required.

I think its up to the local AHJ to decide if the building can be considered use group "U".

50-100 people in it at one time does complicate the issue.

If Walmart or any company tried to run a public auction on regular basis from a building with no power they would be stopped.

 

[kwired]

Amish does not mean 'anti-electricity'.
Amish typically shun connections to the electrical grid, especially in their residences.

I have worked with 'plain people' electricians.

Hey, you can trust what you read on the internet, can't you?
http://amishamerica.com/why-do-amish-restrict-technology/


Maybe the OP needs to look at 'atomic exit lights'.

True they typically shun connection to the electrical grid, and they are not "anti-electricity". What they do reject is modern conveniences. Problem there IMO isn't what is the electrical source, but the modern conveniences they are powering up doesn't appear to correspond to what their rules supposedly are.

I have been told part of their goals are to be "self sufficient" and not depend on others. Kind of makes some sense, the electric utility would be dependency on others, yet they use generators, and anything gas powered is acceptable, yet I don't see them refining their own fuel to use in those machines.

None of them pay taxes other than sales taxes on purchases, they all declare their homes a house of worship to get tax breaks there, they don't use "registered" motor vehicles, but they do own ATV's and other off road designed vehicles and drive them every where around here, makes a lot of sense doesn't it? I think the idea there is since it is not a registered vehicle there is no taxing involved outside of sales tax at the purchase, but they maybe even get out of that by declaring it part of the church or farm production equipment, but they drive them all over on public roads that everyone else pays taxes in order to be able to have such roads. They know exactly what they are doing when it comes to avoiding Uncle Sam. As long as they are not employed by others they do not pay social security either.

I have probably pushed the forum rules a little here but ... I will end it here.:bye:

 

[K8MHZ]

IN the state of Michigan, the residential code reads (paraphrasing), "IF a building has power, you are required to follow the electrical code guidelines...). That is how the Amish get away without having power.

My question is this: The Amish have an auction house. it does have a pump motor that is powered by gas that may require servicing. It is a "place of assembly" since on any given day or night there may be 50-100 people in there. what is the lighting requirements and code references for general lighting and egress lighting. All of our codes ASSUME a building has power. This would be classified as a commercial building since it is not a residence. Is it required to have power at all?

The Michigan Residential Code does NOT apply to anything other than residences, and then with certain limitations. Apartment buildings with more than three apartments are not part of the MRC. An auction house surely would not be, either.

For electrical, the building has to adhere to the 2008 NEC.

 

[broadgage]

If Walmart or any company tried to run a public auction on regular basis from a building with no power they would be stopped.

Provided that daylight was ample, and fire fighting equipment and fire exits were visable, I fail to see why electrical service would be needed to hold a public auction, by Walmart or anyone else.

 

[iwire]

Provided that daylight was ample, and fire fighting equipment and fire exits were visable, I fail to see why electrical service would be needed to hold a public auction, by Walmart or anyone else.

Because our building and fire codes require such things.

Fire alarms, sprinklers, exit signs, and lighted egress regardless of natural light.

For instance in my area a local farmer started a bussness venture which was using his buildings and grounds each year at Halloween for a 'horror theme park'. It became very popular but was closed down due tithe fact it did not have the required fire sprinklers in the barn for the use it had turned into.

http://www.obermayer.com/blog/3254/

 

[steve66]

Because our building and fire codes require such things.

Fire alarms, sprinklers, exit signs, and lighted egress regardless of natural light.

For instance in my area a local farmer started a bussness venture which was using his buildings and grounds each year at Halloween for a 'horror theme park'. It became very popular but was closed down due tithe fact it did not have the required fire sprinklers in the barn for the use it had turned into.

http://www.obermayer.com/blog/3254/

But a use group "U" building does not require electric power, or any artificial lighting. A horror theme park is completely different.

I will admit that using a barn for a religious service or an aution with 100 people present may push the building into another use group that isn't U, but I think only the local inspector can decide that. And I think it would depend a lot on the building layout. If everyone is in one large open livestock area with big barn doors that open directly to the exterior, that are left open, I think an inspector could easily call it a use group U.

 

[Little Bill]

If Walmart or any company tried to run a public auction on regular basis from a building with no power they would be stopped.

Provided that daylight was ample, and fire fighting equipment and fire exits were visable, I fail to see why electrical service would be needed to hold a public auction, by Walmart or anyone else.

Because our building and fire codes require such things.

Well, if they can't have an auction, can they have a "fire sale"?

 

[iwire]

But a use group "U" building does not require electric power, or any artificial lighting. A horror theme park is completely different.

I will admit that using a barn for a religious service or an aution with 100 people present may push the building into another use group that isn't U, but I think only the local inspector can decide that. And I think it would depend a lot on the building layout. If everyone is in one large open livestock area with big barn doors that open directly to the exterior, that are left open, I think an inspector could easily call it a use group U.

Utility and Miscellaneous Use Group U ? Buildings and structures of an accessory character and miscellaneous structures not classified in a specific occupancy

Mercantile Group M ? Display and sale of merchandise, and involves stocks of goods, wares. or merchandise incidental to such purposes and accessible to the public

How could a building used to run run a public auction not fall under use group M?


From the OP

My question is this: The Amish have an auction house. it does have a pump motor that is powered by gas that may require servicing. It is a "place of assembly" since on any given day or night there may be 50-100 people in there.

I am not getting the impression that this is a once and a whie event.