replace breaker panel in existing house

[RonR399]

If I replace a breaker panel in a house built in 2001, do I have to use arc fault breakers?

I figure I do, but I just want to verify.

 

[mjf]

Depends on local rehab codes.

Are there existing AFCI breakers?

 

[junkhound]

replace a breaker panel in a house built in 2001

WHY? Or did you mean 1901?

 

[kwired]

replace a breaker panel in a house built in 2001

WHY? Or did you mean 1901?

As long as it was a new panel when it was installed, it probably is not worn/deteriorated but maybe there is now a need for more load than it can handle or something like that.

 

[mwm1752]

The 2014 addresses this better with an exception -- branch circuit modification would include breakers -- they are a device but AFCI for replacements are not required as long as they are existing and a panel move is not move more than 6' -- both conditions shall apply, move the panel more than 6' & replace with AFCI IMO
NEC 2014 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection
(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications ? Dwelling Units. In any of the ar eas specified in 210.12(A), where branchcircuit
wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit
Exception: AFCI protection shall not be required where the extension of the existing conductors is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft) and does not include any additional outlets or devices.

not applicable till your juristiction adopts it -- But 2011 says replace with AFCI breakers IMO, though sometimes the circuit cannot clear -- In that case talk to your AHJ

 

[RonR399]

Depends on local rehab codes.

Are there existing AFCI breakers?

No existing afci's

 

[RonR399]

As long as it was a new panel when it was installed, it probably is not worn/deteriorated but maybe there is now a need for more load than it can handle or something like that.

The original panel was installed in a dug basement and due tto moisture the panel was ruined.

the new panel is within 6 ft of the original.

 

[RonR399]

As long as it was a new panel when it was installed, it probably is not worn/deteriorated but maybe there is now a need for more load than it can handle or something like that.

The original panel was installed in a dug basement and due tto moisture the panel was ruined.

the new panel is within 6 ft of the original.
The new panel is now in a DRY area.

 

[RonR399]

The 2014 addresses this better with an exception -- branch circuit modification would include breakers -- they are a device but AFCI for replacements are not required as long as they are existing and a panel move is not move more than 6' -- both conditions shall apply, move the panel more than 6' & replace with AFCI IMO
NEC 2014 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection
(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications ? Dwelling Units. In any of the ar eas specified in 210.12(A), where branchcircuit
wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit
Exception: AFCI protection shall not be required where the extension of the existing conductors is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft) and does not include any additional outlets or devices.

not applicable till your juristiction adopts it -- But 2011 says replace with AFCI breakers IMO, though sometimes the circuit cannot clear -- In that case talk to your AHJ

what does IMO mean? there are NO residential inspections here in this county.

 

[RonR399]

If I replace a breaker panel in a house built in 2001, do I have to use arc fault breakers?

I figure I do, but I just want to verify.

The original panel was installed in a dug basement and due to moisture the panel was ruined.

the new panel is within 6 ft of the original.

 

[jxofaltrds]

If I replace a breaker panel in a house built in 2001, do I have to use arc fault breakers?

I figure I do, but I just want to verify.

Couple of points first.

I believe that 'we' are still under the 2011 NEC. I cannot see anything on the BBS website that says we changed Jan 1st. I will know for sure tomorrow night.

Even that you have no inspections you are still required to follow the RCO* so I am using the 2011 NEC.

210.12
(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications ? Dwelling
Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A), where
branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended, the
branch circuit shall be protected by one of the following:
(1) A listed combination-type AFCI located at the origin of
the branch circuit
(2) A listed outlet branch-circuit type AFCI located at the
first receptacle outlet of the existing branch circuit

Discuss this with your attorney since I am not allowed to practice law in Ohio:

313.1.1 Alterations, repairs and additions.

When interior alterations, repairs or additions requiring a permit occur, or when one or more sleeping rooms are added or created in existing dwellings, the individual dwelling unit shall be provided with smoke alarms located as required for new dwellings; the smoke alarms shall be interconnected and hard wired.

You have no permits required where you are but should you install these????? See comment above?

Yes to the AFCI's. Highly recommend the smokes.

* Opinion of Billy Phillips BBS on 2 Jun 2006 at the first class on the RCO. Question asked by yours truly.

 

[junkhound]

DOO (difference of opinion)
IMO (in my opinion)

No inspection, no AFCI.
IMO, AFCI are useless except to protect against incompetent installers.
Since you will be doing the install, it is presumed you are competent.

As far as smoke alarms, absolutely yes.

Smoke alarms are a very cheap insurance and effective for a credible risk, where as AFCI are expensive insurance for a negligible risk if installed on the work of a competent installer.

 

[jxofaltrds]

DOO (difference of opinion)
IMO (in my opinion)

No inspection, no AFCI.
IMO, AFCI are useless except to protect against incompetent installers.
Since you will be doing the install, it is presumed you are competent.

As far as smoke alarms, absolutely yes.

Smoke alarms are a very cheap insurance and effective for a credible risk, where as AFCI are expensive insurance for a negligible risk if installed on the work of a competent installer.

No inspection -rules still apply

AFCI's useless - thought that at first till I did a panel change and on my own installed AFCI breakers - found a flying splice via the AFCI

Smokes we agree on adding

competent - he does not need a license to do the work where he is!

 

[kwired]

No inspection -rules still apply

True, I'm also guessing he is willing to take on any risk for not installing it, and refuses to install them unless a third party makes him - like the AHJ when a permit is filed and the inspection process has to be followed. I can't say I blame people with that approach when it comes to AFCI, it is still a technology that is not very convincingly proven to do what the people that make them claim they will do.

AFCI's useless - thought that at first till I did a panel change and on my own installed AFCI breakers - found a flying splice via the AFCI

There had to be more to that situation than just a "flying splice" to cause the trip. How what is the device going to see differently just because the splice is or is not in a junction box, with everything else being the same?

 

[mtnelect]

Ground Rods - Differant Juridictions

Ground Rods - Differant Juridictions

With the introduction of "GFCI", "AFCI", Smoke Detectors, Carbon Monoxide Detectors, One Ground Rod, Two Ground Rods, and who knows what else ! Check with the "AHJ", and add at least four hours of labor for pulling a permit (Not enough people at Building & Safety) and finding out how the local Electrical Inspector is feeling today !! ...

 

[kwired]

With the introduction of "GFCI", "AFCI", Smoke Detectors, Carbon Monoxide Detectors, One Ground Rod, Two Ground Rods, and who knows what else ! Check with the "AHJ", and add at least four hours of labor for pulling a permit (Not enough people at Building & Safety) and finding out how the local Electrical Inspector is feeling today !! ...

Having a pain in the rear inspector is one thing, but to be a good professional you need to keep up on code and at least know the parts you run into the most frequently fairly well. The more electrical theory you know the easier the intent of some of those code requirements may be to understand also. Like the two ground rod requirement, if you understand why the requirement is there it makes the whole process of determining what to do a little easier. There are too many in this trade that just follow the rules they were taught and when they do something wrong they just complain about having to change it, where if they understood what they were doing better and stayed on top of codes they may have never done anything wrong in the first place.

 

[jxofaltrds]

True, I'm also guessing he is willing to take on any risk for not installing it, and refuses to install them unless a third party makes him - like the AHJ when a permit is filed and the inspection process has to be followed. I can't say I blame people with that approach when it comes to AFCI, it is still a technology that is not very convincingly proven to do what the people that make them claim they will do.

There had to be more to that situation than just a "flying splice" to cause the trip. How what is the device going to see differently just because the splice is or is not in a junction box, with everything else being the same?

1st - no one can make him install AFCI's. Not even the courts. The RCO applies but can only be enforced by a Certified Building Department (3781 ORC). Did an inspection for some kids who had a house fire. The health department condemned the home. Went to court. The judge required that the electrical work that they did be inspected by an ESI (3783 ORC). Small town. Both the judge and the health dept thought they 'had' these kids. (Legion or Amvets or some club across the street want the property for a parking lot). Well the kids got lucky and hired me. First the existing wiring was grandfathered. Now the problem. Almost everything that they did was not code compliant (they were in tears) BUT since no Certified Building Department no one could make them 'fix' it. Sent my finding of the facts to their attorney.

2nd The 'wire' in question left the first outlet with a white jacket and entered the next outlet with a black jacket. My assumption - a flying spice. re-feed that portion.

 

[JDBrown]

...
AFCI's useless - thought that at first till I did a panel change and on my own installed AFCI breakers - found a flying splice via the AFCI
...

This seems to be the best argument for AFCIs, but I still think it's pretty weak. All this does is show that they're a good quality control tool, along the same line as "ringing out" your circuits before energizing. All of the AFCI "success stories" I've heard are like this -- something was wired incorrectly and an AFCI that wouldn't hold in called attention to the problem. Once the wiring problem has been corrected, however, the AFCI breaker doesn't appear to provide any more protection than a standard TM breaker -- it just costs more and is more likely to trip when you plug in your vacuum or your neighbor fires up his HAM radio. So, while the AFCI breaker works well as a troubleshooting and QC tool, what reason is there to require that it remain connected after all of the wiring mistakes have been corrected?

Of course, allowing AFCIs to be used for close-out testing and then replaced with regular ol' TM breakers would probably create a nightmare for building inspectors who would have to either observe the tests or take the Contractors' word for it (not to mention the lost revenue for breaker manufacturers, since the same AFCIs could be re-used by Contractors for testing at multiple jobs). It's just that the more I learn about AFCIs, the more convinced I become that they're really only useful as a testing tool.

As for the OP's question and the real purpose of this thread, if the Code says you've got to install AFCIs, I'd say just install them. If you don't you could be opening yourself up to a lawsuit in the future. If the house ever catches fire, chances are it will be ruled an electrical fire (since that's what supposedly happens when they don't know what actually caused it). And it would be all too easy to find yourself in a court room hearing a lawyer say something like, "So, even though the Code required them, you chose not to install these AFCI devices, which are specifically designed to prevent this type of electrical fire." Good luck getting out of that one. You can point out that there's not much evidence to support the claim that AFCIs prevent fires, you can point out that the investigators only called it an electrical fire because they couldn't find any other obvious cause, but at the end of the day you will lose. Much better to be able to say that you installed everything by the book and did everything you could to prevent just such a fire.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Yes Ohio is still on the 2011. No word on when or if the 2014 will be codified.

 

[kwired]

2nd The 'wire' in question left the first outlet with a white jacket and entered the next outlet with a black jacket. My assumption - a flying spice. re-feed that portion.

You very well may have had a flying splice, but why would a flying splice cause an AFCI to trip? If the flying splice has no weak connection to cause any arcing, and has no ground faults there is no good reason for it to trip. A nail or staple driven into the cable could happen but is not dependent on there being a flying splice for that to happen. Who knows what else you never saw that was ultimately abandoned that could have been the source of the tripping.