Bonding of corrugated stainless steal tubing for gas heater in garage.

[jxofaltrds]

The NFPA 54 rule is the rule, but there is just no technical evidence that the bonding solves the problem. CMP5 asked the proposers for technical evidence to support the idea that the bonding will prevent the lightning damage that was causing fires, and the submitters could not provide any such evidence that would convince CMP 5 to put the rule into Article 250.

Based on this lack of evidence, if I was building a house in an area that has thunderstorms, I would not even consider CSST for my gas piping.

That being said, there are codes and instructions that require the CSST to be bonded and the EC might as well do it, as long as he gets paid to do it.

EXACTLY!

 

[RICK NAPIER]

2012
SECTION 310 (IFGS) ELECTRICAL BONDING

310.1 Pipe and tubing other than CSST.
Each above-ground portion of a gas piping system other than corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) that is likely to become energized shall be electrically continuous and bonded to an effective ground-fault current path. Gas piping other than CSST shall be considered to be bonded where it is connected to appliances that are connected to the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit supplying that appliance. 310.1.1 CSST.
Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system. The bonding jumper shall connect to a metallic pipe or fitting between the point of delivery and the first downstream CSST fitting. The bonding jumper shall be not smaller than 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent. Gas piping systems that contain one or more segments of CSST shall be bonded in accordance with this section.
Same verbiage for
International Residential Code G24.11.1.1
NFPA 54 7.13.2

Since you mentioned NJ I just wanted to point out that the code section you cited is from the 2012 IFGC but NJ is in the 2009 IFGC and there is a difference as to where the bonding jumper may attach.

310.1.1 CSST. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building.

In NJ this section and the one in the IRC was put under the resposibilities of the electrical inspector and as such can hold up the electrician when it doesn't pass.

 

[Ohms law]

EXACTLY!

So, when they run CSST as the gas system then the homeowner should actually have a EC install a lightning protection system, right? That CSST sounds pretty dangerous. No the mechanical inspector did say to the heating and cooling guy if you run some type of black flexible tubing they would not have to bond. Why wouldn't they have done this in the first place is my question.

 

[jxofaltrds]

2012
SECTION 310 (IFGS) ELECTRICAL BONDING

310.1 Pipe and tubing other than CSST.
Each above-ground portion of a gas piping system other than corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) that is likely to become energized shall be electrically continuous and bonded to an effective ground-fault current path. Gas piping other than CSST shall be considered to be bonded where it is connected to appliances that are connected to the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit supplying that appliance. 310.1.1 CSST.
Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system. The bonding jumper shall connect to a metallic pipe or fitting between the point of delivery and the first downstream CSST fitting. The bonding jumper shall be not smaller than 6 AWG copper wire or equivalent. Gas piping systems that contain one or more segments of CSST shall be bonded in accordance with this section.
Same verbiage for
International Residential Code G24.11.1.1
NFPA 54 7.13.2

Since you mentioned NJ I just wanted to point out that the code section you cited is from the 2012 IFGC but NJ is in the 2009 IFGC and there is a difference as to where the bonding jumper may attach.

310.1.1 CSST. Corrugated stainless steel tubing (CSST) gas piping systems shall be bonded to the electrical service grounding electrode system at the point where the gas service enters the building.

In NJ this section and the one in the IRC was put under the resposibilities of the electrical inspector and as such can hold up the electrician when it doesn't pass.

Sounds like 310.1 is for faults and 310.1.1 is for lightning 'protection'. Correct?

 

[Gregg Harris]

Sounds like 310.1 is for faults and 310.1.1 is for lightning 'protection'. Correct?

Correct Mike 310.1 is referencing NEC 250.104 and 310.1.1 is not in the NEC yet

 

[jxofaltrds]

So, when they run CSST as the gas system then the homeowner should actually have a EC install a lightning protection system, right? That CSST sounds pretty dangerous. No the mechanical inspector did say to the heating and cooling guy if you run some type of black flexible tubing they would not have to bond. Why wouldn't they have done this in the first place is my question.

Please do not call it lightning protection. Some of us think this stuff is crap. Best thing to do is get a copy of the manf. bonding instructions follow them and verify with your AHJ any other requirements. Also don't be like some of us and express an opinion as to the product. Do your job, get paid and leave.

 

[jim dungar]

oops

typing before reading:ashamed1:

 

[Gregg Harris]

Please do not call it lightning protection. Some of us think this stuff is crap. Best thing to do is get a copy of the manf. bonding instructions follow them and verify with your AHJ any other requirements. Also don't be like some of us and express an opinion as to the product. Do your job, get paid and leave.

The manufactures instructions are verbatim to 301.1.1

As with any product if not installed by competent individuals and companies that care about the end result, failures are emanate.

I have seen CSST installed as the manufactures specify and most not. This I blame on the marketing from the manufactures.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So, when they run CSST as the gas system then the homeowner should actually have a EC install a lightning protection system, right? That CSST sounds pretty dangerous. No the mechanical inspector did say to the heating and cooling guy if you run some type of black flexible tubing they would not have to bond. Why wouldn't they have done this in the first place is my question.

If you go back and read some of the stuff from the class action suit, you will find that there were only two methods that would eliminate the problem...install a lightning protection system for the building or don't use CSST.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... Electricians do not want to bond it because, . well I have not a clue. ...

I think it really goes back to getting paid for the work. It is unlikely that the EC would know in advance of submitting his bid that CSST was to be used in the house, so the bonding would not have been included in the bid.
I don't think too many ECs would have a problem installing the bonding if they would be paid to do so.

 

[Ohms law]

Oops

 

[Ohms law]

Please do not call it lightning protection. Some of us think this stuff is crap. Best thing to do is get a copy of the manf. bonding instructions follow them and verify with your AHJ any other requirements. Also don't be like some of us and express an opinion as to the product. Do your job, get paid and leave.

I understand what your saying. I wanted to know for my own personal knowledge, so if I was asked this question in the future I would have a answer.

In regard to the product I wasn't intentional bad mouthing it. I just feel why use the product if lightning poses a huge safety issue when other products dont require additional bonding.

 

[tom baker]

That makes perfect sense. I read a similar article on how this is a common mis conception and that nobody really cares.

One more question what is Art. 250.104(B) in relation to?

We care. Mike Holt cares and is responsible for clearing up a lot of the misconceptions on grounding

 

[Ohms law]

We care. Mike Holt cares and is responsible for clearing up a lot of the misconceptions on grounding

I care to, that's why I ask questions

 

[Gregg Harris]

So, when they run CSST as the gas system then the homeowner should actually have a EC install a lightning protection system, right? That CSST sounds pretty dangerous. No the mechanical inspector did say to the heating and cooling guy if you run some type of black flexible tubing they would not have to bond. Why wouldn't they have done this in the first place is my question.

I missed this one, but the inspector would be wrong. The New products that have a black outer covering made of a carbon composite (Flash Shield by Gastite" is one. These products do not require additional bonding by the manufacturer but are still required to be bonded per NFPA 54 7.13.1 IFGC 310.1.1 and IRC G2411.1.1

 

[jxofaltrds]

If you go back and read some of the stuff from the class action suit, you will find that there were only two methods that would eliminate the problem...install a lightning protection system for the building or don't use CSST.

Don I think we are on the same page. I just do not want someone to think that "install a lightning protection system for the building" solves anything as to CSST being safer. :thumbsdown:

 

[GoldDigger]

Don I think we are on the same page. I just do not want someone to think that "install a lightning protection system for the building" solves anything as to CSST being safer. :thumbsdown:

:thumbsup:The point I see as being relevant is that we expect a "lighting protection system" with air terminals, etc. to provide a measure of protection against a direct strike, but not necessarily against currents induced by a near strike.

 

[Sahib]

In regard to the product I wasn't intentional bad mouthing it. I just feel why use the product if lightning poses a huge safety issue when other products dont require additional bonding.

Perhaps the other products have a smooth outer surface, whereas the corrugations in CSST encourage the lightning current of sufficient magnitude, if suitable bonding not provided, to jump across the gaps in the form of arcs with a tendency to punch through CSST and you know what happens next......Boom.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Perhaps the other products have a smooth outer surface, whereas the corrugations in CSST encourage the lightning current of sufficient magnitude, if suitable bonding not provided, to jump across the gaps in the form of arcs with a tendency to punch through CSST and you know what happens next......Boom.

CSST has a wall thickness of 0.01", black pipe in the 1/2" size has a wall thickness of 0.109".

 

[Sahib]

CSST has a wall thickness of 0.01", black pipe in the 1/2" size has a wall thickness of 0.109".

That explains the susceptibility of CSST for getting pierced by lightning, thereby prone to gas leaks.