200 amp feeder from 200 amp service

[FREEBALL]

Just wanted to throw out here a response I got from Square D on a qo 2225SL lug feed. He stated that I cannot use this to feed an additional 200 amp panel because the buss is not rated for this. However Square D states that the qo2225SL will fit in the panel. My application was to place this in a 200 amp service panel and feed an additional 200 amp panel with a main, from the garage to the house. He stated that a panel with feed through lugs was required, I asked him why this would not be correct and he stated that the feeder conductors would not be protected. I argued and said they would be protected by the main in the service panel he stated that the main breaker in the service panel only protects the buss in that panel. I asked why would you make such a device and he simply stated "well some people don't worry about protecting the conductors". In the end I used a qo2200 breaker. Anybody have any thoughts on this.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Check the info in the panel. Many panels state that 125 amps is the largest you can use on the stabs. That means you cannot have 2- 60 amp loads across from each other on the same stab.

The fact that a breaker will fit does not mean it is compliant. I have always used feed thru lug panels for this application

 

[FREEBALL]

Thanx Dennis yeah I took that in consideration but the QO2225SL uses 4 spaces splitting up the load on the stabs. That was what was puzzling me but I do see your point. I know this is an odd application but I wanted to keep the diversity in the install for if in the future the home owner decides on changing the service, like from all gas to electric, with the least amount of issue. The loads come out to about 40 amps in the garage and 80-100 in the home. The feed through panels I looked at, which would have been the correct way to go, were only NRB. Tristate could order an indoor but man the price was astronomical. I believe this application will be safe, as NEC does not specify exactly except as long as the load is not exceeding the amperage and rating of the OCD and conductor rating, after continuous and non-continuous loads are calculated. Please let me know what you think.

 

[charlie b]

Sorry, but I do not understand the description. That is in part because I do not know if the model numbers you cite are for breakers, for buswork, or for complete panels. I am also not sure how you are planning to connect the two panels, and where various breakers come into play. Can you attach a sketch, or try to describe it in another way?

 

[Smart $]

Sorry, but I do not understand the description. That is in part because I do not know if the model numbers you cite are for breakers, for buswork, or for complete panels. I am also not sure how you are planning to connect the two panels, and where various breakers come into play. Can you attach a sketch, or try to describe it in another way?

Here's a picture of a 2-space unit. The model mentioned by OP'er is a 4-space.

 

[Smart $]

Thanx Dennis yeah I took that in consideration but the QO2225SL uses 4 spaces splitting up the load on the stabs. That was what was puzzling me but I do see your point. I know this is an odd application but I wanted to keep the diversity in the install for if in the future the home owner decides on changing the service, like from all gas to electric, with the least amount of issue. The loads come out to about 40 amps in the garage and 80-100 in the home. The feed through panels I looked at, which would have been the correct way to go, were only NRB. Tristate could order an indoor but man the price was astronomical. I believe this application will be safe, as NEC does not specify exactly except as long as the load is not exceeding the amperage and rating of the OCD and conductor rating, after continuous and non-continuous loads are calculated. Please let me know what you think.

Here's what Schneider/Square D says about it....

http://www.schneider-electric.us/si...&country=US&lang=EN&id=FA101792&redirect=true

 

[FREEBALL]

Yeah no problem lets start from beginning

The home owner has a 2 position meter base. The garage was built in 1989 before the home. The home was then built 2 yrs. later. The 2nd pos. of the meter served the home. The utility placed a demand meter for the garage, since previous owner did his business from the garage, and a residential meter for the home. The homeowner wants all on one service since the utility said the only way to discontinue the commercial bill would be to put both on same panel.

Now the residence meter fed into the garage into a 200 a mainbreaker disconnect and out to the home. The commercial fed into the garage into a 200 amp main panel. The panel is over 25 yrs old so we have decided to replace this. I am feeding the home from the new panel in the garage. The panel is qo13040m200. I do not need that many spaces but without NEC reference and Square D saying this was ok, I opted this route. I am installing a qo2200 breaker and refeeding the home, 120ft pull underground. Also the feed to the home was prior to code requirement of grounding conductor to be installed to separate structue, so I am updating the grounding that is required. I wanted to keep the diversity of the 200 amp in the event things change. Loads are well under the OCPD

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[FREEBALL]

Thanx Dennis

Yeah I read that also the key word will they fit anywhere in a qo panel. I know there is certain locations in the panel they need placed. The wire bending space should not be an issue since the breaker feeds from the bottom/top not from the side.

 

[FREEBALL]

this is the pic of the breaker the SL 2225 was the same configuration however ofcourse no overcurrent protection.

 

[jim dungar]

Anybody have any thoughts on this.

Yeah, there was a misunderstanding or you were given poor information.
Did it come from a distributor person, a Square D sales engineer, or a Square D application engineer?

The Digest does not have list any restrictions on the ampacity of this 225A lug kit which is rated for use with conductor sizes #4-300kcmil.
Their FAQ says to follow the instructions for the device. The only limitations in the instructions is be careful of other breakers (e.g. GFCI style) that might impact the wire bending space, and to use a hold-down kit if being used for backfeeding.

 

[FREEBALL]

Tristate (dist.) called Square D rep. and he got engineer on phone and we had a conference call. The debate was heated enough even tristate rep. said that this does not make a lot of sense. But I have been doing electric work for 20 years, aladmit, learned on the job, and have worked on a lot of projects residential, commercial, industrial, with great mentors, but this does not make a lot of sense. But I did speak to Square D and if that is what they say is true, and I'm using their equipment, I will follow their recommendation.

I guess if I had a complaint about them it would be why not have a feed through panel with indoor application that is not so costly. I know safety is the issue, and I fully understand that, but if this type of application is prevalent why not make the item available on the low end of cost. My distributer cant even beat home depot on panel price. I know square D is just a name in some minds but I have never used anything but. I once installed a GE switchgear for a service 1600 amp, while working for a contractor, but used Square D feeder equipment. IDK why probably because Square D is so expensive in the switch gear. Now I could have used the rainproof feed through panel but then I would not have been able to install and reconnect the existing circuits due to the fact the NRB enclosure is not meant to have connections in the top except the hub. And then the panel would not be flush mount since the panel has a rainproof hinged cover.

Thanx again

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Tristate (dist.) called Square D rep. and he got engineer on phone and we had a conference call. The debate was heated enough even tristate rep. said that this does not make a lot of sense. But I have been doing electric work for 20 years, aladmit, learned on the job, and have worked on a lot of projects residential, commercial, industrial, with great mentors, but this does not make a lot of sense. But I did speak to Square D and if that is what they say is true, and I'm using their equipment, I will follow their recommendation.

Thanx again

If Sq. D says go then go- as I said before the only thing I can think of is the stabs on the panel. I know many 200 resi panels are limited to 125 amps but that does not mean all of them are. If Jim D says good then I suspect he is correct as he has had a long relationship with Sq.D , I believe.

 

[FREEBALL]

wish I had a chance to talk to him prior to ordering the lug kit the QO2225SL lug kit was 100 dollars less expensive. But did you know that even distributers have to have a 1000 doll. order before Square D ships or else theres a 50 dollar charge. And then shipping is an additional 50 charge. Tristate had the 200 amp breaker it was 300.00 but the lug kit was 197.00. However I could not get an answer quick enough before their order went in so the lug kit would have been almost the same. Tristate took care of the price difference.

Thanx again
Jeff

 

[jim dungar]

Tristate (dist.) called Square D rep. and he got engineer on phone and we had a conference call.

That still does not tell me if the engineer was in sales or product application (not product design).

Yes, it is possible that the printed instructions have an errata sheet but barring that, there is no reason you could not have used it. In fact, the instruction sheet for that SL kit are the exact same ones as the breaker you used.

And I do encourage you calling manufacturers, just be aware, while 'factory people' are good at building things, but they rarely have experience with NEC interpretations.