Thoughts on an issue

[lapseofmind]

I was approached the other by someone in the shop where I work and this is his problem:

He has a little subpanel, fed from another subpanel, fed from his main. That little subpanel was used to power a hot tub. Apparently it had been on for a long time and then one day he lost power to his kitchen. After that, a 2-pole 70amp breaker in the main started sparking. He showed me pictures.

One picture showed that one of the legs on the breaker, where it stabs into the panel, was burned up pretty good. Another picture showed the lines coming in, feeding the panel. One was blackened and the part of the enclosure around it was melted(apparently it's in a plastic enclosure).

I had him turn the main breaker off, file off the black substance that had accumulated on the tab where the breaker had been sparking and put a new breaker in. Then I had him disconnect the wires going to the little sub-sub panel.

Thoughts on why this would occur? Possibly back feeding and a faulty breaker? I'm a new journeyman with mainly construction experience so service work isn't exactly my strong suit. Still, I'd like to learn and get better.

 

[iwire]

First off don't file electrical carrying parts. It sounds like the panel should be replaced or at the least that bus area not used.

As to the why, generally a loose connection with a continuous or heavy load heat up cools down, heats up, cools down, each time making the connection looser until it starts melting plastic and metal.

This was already a loose connection, filling it only removes more metal making it looser still.

Seriously he should have an experienced electrician come in, replace the bad parts and evaluate the entire set up.

 

[lapseofmind]

I don't think he can afford one nor can he afford to replace it. I gave him the best advice I could at the moment but that's why I came on here and asked.

 

[lapseofmind]

As to why I had him file it, he said that he couldn't put a new breaker in once he got the old one off. On the tab that had been sparking, there was a build up of black stuff. In order for him to get the new breaker on, he had to file it down. I haven't been there to look and I'm only basing this information off of the pictures he showed me and what he had told me.

I do agree though, he'd be better off going to a more experienced electrician. That's the problem with construction, it's great for learning to how to install systems, not so good for troubleshooting or servicing.

 

[augie47]

I don't think he can afford one nor can he afford to replace it. I gave him the best advice I could at the moment but that's why I came on here and asked.

One of those great mysteries of life .. once can not afford a qualified electrician but one can easily afford loses associated with the resulting fire. hummmmmm

 

[lapseofmind]

One of those great mysteries of life .. once can not afford a qualified electrician but one can easily afford loses associated with the resulting fire. hummmmmm

Yes, I agree. Me being the nice guy that I am I figured I'd help, though my experience limited. At least I'm nice enough to ask since I don't know for sure.

 

[Strathead]

Yes, I agree. Me being the nice guy that I am I figured I'd help, though my experience limited. At least I'm nice enough to ask since I don't know for sure.

My advise to you is to write a registered letter retracting the advice you gave him and informing him to discontinue use until the panel is changed. Unless you are 100% sure that he won't mention you to his insurance company when they tell him he voided his coverage by filing the bus and modifying the panel. This is not a minor issue.

 

[lapseofmind]

I talked to him again today and he told me that he got the advice of another electrician after mine. This electrician also told him to file off the burned material from the tab, in order to get the new breaker on. I'll get him to sign off on the advice thing.

 

[Strathead]

I talked to him again today and he told me that he got the advice of another electrician after mine. This electrician also told him to file off the burned material from the tab, in order to get the new breaker on. I'll get him to sign off on the advice thing.

I mean no disrespect to you. I think you had enough second thoughts to come here and ask, and we all make mistakes, but electricity just isn't something to fool with. That panel probably costs $60 and he already bought another breaker, I wonder if the hot tub is GFI protected? I am sorry to be sanctimonious here, but I have made a couple of relatively minor decisions in my life that have caused serious harm (not electrical for the record) so I always weigh my decision against these. For example, would you tell a kid it is OK to stand in the middle of a field with a metal umbrella in a thunderstorm? Probably similar odds. There are way too many hacks out there. I see it so often!

 

[lapseofmind]

Honestly, I appreciate all the advice I can get. I went through my apprenticeship and only did construction installations. No service work, no maintenance. I didn't think about the insurance issue on the modification of the panel, I just figured the tab needed to be cleaned to get the new breaker on. I guess my biggest problem here(which coincides with my limited experience) is that I don't have any other electricians to work with, just myself. No one else to learn from. Of course, if you can't learn from others mistakes you tend to learn from your own. That's the reason I joined this forum. I'll be relocating in a few months and hopefully I can catch a gig doing service work or maintenance, that way I can get some proper experience on fixing electrical systems. I can run pipe, make up panels, build MCC's, etc...but none of that has to do with fixing stuff. So again, I appreciate all the advice I can get, just so long as it's devoid of condescension. As an apprentice I had my fair share of jerk journeymen who knew half as much as they pretended and spent more time berating than teaching.

 

[qcroanoke]

Honestly, I appreciate all the advice I can get. I went through my apprenticeship and only did construction installations. No service work, no maintenance. I didn't think about the insurance issue on the modification of the panel, I just figured the tab needed to be cleaned to get the new breaker on. I guess my biggest problem here(which coincides with my limited experience) is that I don't have any other electricians to work with, just myself. No one else to learn from. Of course, if you can't learn from others mistakes you tend to learn from your own. That's the reason I joined this forum. I'll be relocating in a few months and hopefully I can catch a gig doing service work or maintenance, that way I can get some proper experience on fixing electrical systems. I can run pipe, make up panels, build MCC's, etc...but none of that has to do with fixing stuff. So again, I appreciate all the advice I can get, just so long as it's devoid of condescension. As an apprentice I had my fair share of jerk journeymen who knew half as much as they pretended and spent more time berating than teaching.

My advice to you is take a lot of this "advice" with a grain of salt. Some people on here would have you think that anything you do is going to end up killing someone.
The holier than thou attitude gets quite out of hand in here sometimes.

 

[lapseofmind]

My advice is to you is take a lot of this "advice" with a grain of salt. Some people on here would have you think that anything you do is going to end up killing someone.
The holier than thou attitude gets quite out of hand in here sometimes.

Sounds like something my last jdub told me before I got bumped up and ran my first job. "Remember, not everyone knows everything so trust your gut." He was probably my favorite tooly to work with. The guy is one heck of an electrician and great teacher.

 

[qcroanoke]

First off don't file electrical carrying parts. It sounds like the panel should be replaced or at the least that bus area not used.

As to the why, generally a loose connection with a continuous or heavy load heat up cools down, heats up, cools down, each time making the connection looser until it starts melting plastic and metal.

This was already a loose connection, filling it only removes more metal making it looser still.

Seriously he should have an experienced electrician come in, replace the bad parts and evaluate the entire set up.

This is good advice and a good explanation.

 

[MichaelGP3]

My advice to you is take a lot of this "advice" with a grain of salt. Some people on here would have you think that anything you do is going to end up killing someone.
The holier than thou attitude gets quite out of hand in here sometimes.

Yeah, no need to let the sounds and smells of a sub panel arcing get in the way of a relaxing soak in the hot tub.

 

[lapseofmind]

I don't think it was a loose connection. To be perfectly honest I don't. I talked to guy again today and got all the details.

Check it: The arcing on the A phase of the 2 pole breaker happened only once and it was at the same time the burn marks appeared on the line coming in and the lights in his kitchen started flickering. At this time the hot tub was running. He killed the breaker.

After advice, he turned off the hot tub breaker. The kitchen is fed from the sub panel that the hot tub panel is fed from.

Now, the filing issue: He complained he couldn't install the new breaker because there was build up on A phase tab. That's why I said file it, get the burn build up off so he could install it. He expressed his lack of money when I initially advised him to get a new panel installed.

He hasn't had any problems since disconnecting the panel that fed the hot tub and installing the new breaker. That's all the information I've gathered from this guy so far. I'll keep tabs on what's going and continue to advise him on installing a new panel.


I'm thinking overload because of some component in the hot tub AND a faulty breaker. Now, I'll reiterate, I've only been doing electrical work for 6 years and the majority has been installing electrical systems in new and remodel construction, so obviously my knowledge and experience is far less than most people.

 

[Barbqranch]

Was this by any chance a Federal Pacific or Zinsco panel? That could explain a lot.

 

[lapseofmind]

Was this by any chance a Federal Pacific or Zinsco panel? That could explain a lot.

I don't know. I guess really at this point I just need to go out there at look at what's really going on. I haven't been there to look, just going off information this coworker gave me. Apparently there are plenty of variables that still need filled in lol I'll find out who the manufacturer of the panel is and hopefully this might clear something up.

 

[cpinetree]

Was this by any chance a Federal Pacific or Zinsco panel? That could explain a lot.

Or an aluminum buss ITE panel from the 70's?

Found more than one with puddles of aluminum melted from the buss at the bottom of the panel, and many more with burnt buss bars and breakers.

 

[lapseofmind]

Or an aluminum buss ITE panel from the 70's?

Found more than one with puddles of aluminum melted from the buss at the bottom of the panel, and many more with burnt buss bars and breakers.

In the picture I seen it looks like aluminum but I can't tell for sure. It could just be the flash on the camera making it look that way. He lives in an older double wide so I wouldn't doubt if it was aluminum.

 

[lapseofmind]

Good news! I showed him prices of panels from home depot online and he agreed to purchase a new panel! Though, the issue is still unresolved and needs to be figured out but the installation of the new panel.