Another Pool Question

[augie47]

I agree.
I have just never considered a wood post to be a structure.
So this panel must also be service rated and typically have a main breaker unless listed for use with no more than 6 disconnects.

And from a personal view point I would tend to agree, but then what if it was two or three posts with strut or lumber between them ? what if it's a brick wall ?
where do we make a distinction ? If a GES is "necessary" at a panel in a detached garage why wold one not be needed at that post ?
Lots of unanswered questions so some of us take the route... you put it there, it's a structure...
on a side note, I believe the "rated as service" may have been deleted in the '14.

 

[retire09]

My opinion would be to call it a structure for application of 250-32 if it contains electrical installations on or in it.
Maybe a structure server by the panel.
I would see no point in providing a GES for any "structure" used only for the support of a panel, even a fence.
Maybe this definition could use some refinement or clarification if it is actually intended to be applied to a wooden post.
But this has been an interesting topic and these types of discussions are the ones we can all learn something from.

Thanks

 

[kwired]

And from a personal view point I would tend to agree, but then what if it was two or three posts with strut or lumber between them ? what if it's a brick wall ?
where do we make a distinction ? If a GES is "necessary" at a panel in a detached garage why wold one not be needed at that post ?
Lots of unanswered questions so some of us take the route... you put it there, it's a structure...
on a side note, I believe the "rated as service" may have been deleted in the '14.

I don't have an issue with calling a post a structure.

What can become confusing is when does something that fits the definition of structure become a "separate structure"?

If you take definitions very literally you would need to apply such rules to things like air conditioning equipment, lift stations, lighting poles (though those are specifically exempted IIRC), signs, etc.,though here are exceptions for single branch circuits, which does help qualify most of what I mentioned.

When you get into industrial type applications, my main application I run into the most is grain storage facilities, you can run into a central location for power and controls for equipment located on multiple structures. If you take the definition of structure very literally these kind of applications become much more difficult to comply with code. We generally treat the entire facility as a single structure or at least the entire group of functionally related structures that are in close proximity to one another.

 

[augie47]

I think those are great points leaving little doubt that the definition needs some clarification but, boy, is it going to be difficult to draw those lines of distinction.

 

[Davis Electrical]

Ok I'm going to try this one more time. 250.32 (A): "Buildings or structures supplied"... note there is no use of the term "attached" here, it merely says supplied. Note also: "shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed [in accordance with article 250]." "Shall be connected in accordance with 250.32 (B) or (C). "Where there is no existing grounding electrode [or system], the grounding electrodes (s) shall be installed." (It actually uses the word installed twice.)

Although at earth potential, whether steel-walled or concrete, the equipotential grid is not an electrically connected grounding electrode system. We have to install one, the single exception being the single branch circuit. Very few inground swimming pools, btw, are supplied by a single branch circuit. Most have at least one light and a pump/filter. The shaft of that pump is inserted into the water jacket at the pump. That steel shaft is electrically connected to the pool through the water. We can't say this circuit for the pump does not supply the pool. It's every bit as electrically connected as the light is.

Am I going to install a ground rod for a subpanel in the typical residential installation? Hell no. I'm just pointing out that y'all are wrong.

 

[kwired]

Ok I'm going to try this one more time. 250.32 (A): "Buildings or structures supplied"... note there is no use of the term "attached" here, it merely says supplied. Note also: "shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed [in accordance with article 250]." "Shall be connected in accordance with 250.32 (B) or (C). "Where there is no existing grounding electrode [or system], the grounding electrodes (s) shall be installed." (It actually uses the word installed twice.)

Although at earth potential, whether steel-walled or concrete, the equipotential grid is not an electrically connected grounding electrode system. We have to install one, the single exception being the single branch circuit. Very few inground swimming pools, btw, are supplied by a single branch circuit. Most have at least one light and a pump/filter. The shaft of that pump is inserted into the water jacket at the pump. That steel shaft is electrically connected to the pool through the water. We can't say this circuit for the pump does not supply the pool. It's every bit as electrically connected as the light is.

Am I going to install a ground rod for a subpanel in the typical residential installation? Hell no. I'm just pointing out that y'all are wrong.

That pump is no more a direct component of the pool then the panel is though. It may be in the same separate structure as the panel for all we know. How about the piping from the pump to the pool? part of the pool or part of the other structure? Or maybe it is it's own structure? The pump is never in the pool, it is adjacent to the pool or in a remote location.

You can have separate structures that are functionally related. You can have a pool shed, tear out the pool and now it is just a shed.

 

[augie47]

agree, only a light on a BRANCH CIRCUIT would be part of the pool structure.

 

[david]

agree, only a light on a BRANCH CIRCUIT would be part of the pool structure.

I don?t see a chair lift as being any different than a ladder if you consider a ladder as part of the pool structure I don?t know how the lift would not be part of the structure.

I also don?t see how the pool cover would not be considered part of the pool structure. I don?t know how thin we can split hairs

I agree that the pool pump installed for circulation is not part of the structure just because the watter it pumps circulates through the pool.

His premise however is correct that a lot of pools have more than one circuit feeding them. A high school swimming pool that I inspected had five branch circuits supply the wet niche fixtures because they just wanted the light on that circuit lost if the GFCI protection caused a circuit to be lost. If one tripped they disconnected it from the panel until they could trouble shoot the problem.

There is just no way to get around the fact that pools are feed with multiple branch circuits

 

[Little Bill]

Ok I'm going to try this one more time. 250.32 (A): "Buildings or structures supplied"... note there is no use of the term "attached" here, it merely says supplied. Note also: "shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed [in accordance with article 250]." "Shall be connected in accordance with 250.32 (B) or (C). "Where there is no existing grounding electrode [or system], the grounding electrodes (s) shall be installed." (It actually uses the word installed twice.)

Although at earth potential, whether steel-walled or concrete, the equipotential grid is not an electrically connected grounding electrode system. We have to install one, the single exception being the single branch circuit. Very few inground swimming pools, btw, are supplied by a single branch circuit. Most have at least one light and a pump/filter. The shaft of that pump is inserted into the water jacket at the pump. That steel shaft is electrically connected to the pool through the water. We can't say this circuit for the pump does not supply the pool. It's every bit as electrically connected as the light is.

Am I going to install a ground rod for a subpanel in the typical residential installation? Hell no. I'm just pointing out that y'all are wrong.

And again, although the pool may be defined as a structure, it is not what is being supplied by the feed or branch circuit. Supplied meaning supplying power to the whole structure for distribution as needed. The equipment for the pool is what is being supplied. As has been said, if the panel for the pool equipment is at a separate building or structure than where it is being fed from, then a GES is required there. Obviously the panel/service it's fed from will have a GES also.

Since 250.32 says the GECs shall be installed according to 250.32(B) (for a grounded system), let's look at what 250.32(B) says:

(B) Grounded Systems.
(1) Supplied by a Feeder or Branch Circuit. An equipment
grounding conductor, as described in 250.118, shall be
run with the supply conductors and be connected to the
building or structure disconnecting means and to the grounding
electrode(s). The equipment grounding conductor shall
be used for grounding or bonding of equipment, structures,
or frames required to be grounded or bonded. The equipment
grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with
250.122. Any installed grounded conductor shall not be connected
to the equipment grounding conductor or to the
grounding electrode(s).

Look at the part in red. Does the pool (defined as structure) have a disconnecting means?
No it does not, the structure where the panel is does, but not the pool it's self.
So the pool it's self is not what is receiving the feeder or branch circuit for distribution.

Before you say that a light or chair lift, etc. is a branch circuit, they are but not a branch circuit that is supplying the entire pool/structure for distribution.
If you build a barn or shed and put a panel in there, obviously it needs a GES. Now out of that barn you run (8) branch circuits outside for receptacles, lights, etc., would you go drive a ground rod at each circuit? What if these receptacles were mounted on wooden poles, would you have to drive a ground rod at each pole?

I don't think so!:happyno:

 

[kwired]

And again, although the pool may be defined as a structure, it is not what is being supplied by the feed or branch circuit. Supplied meaning supplying power to the whole structure for distribution as needed. The equipment for the pool is what is being supplied. As has been said, if the panel for the pool equipment is at a separate building or structure than where it is being fed from, then a GES is required there. Obviously the panel/service it's fed from will have a GES also.

Since 250.32 says the GECs shall be installed according to 250.32(B) (for a grounded system), let's look at what 250.32(B) says:



Look at the part in red. Does the pool (defined as structure) have a disconnecting means?
No it does not, the structure where the panel is does, but not the pool it's self.
So the pool it's self is not what is receiving the feeder or branch circuit for distribution.

Before you say that a light or chair lift, etc. is a branch circuit, they are but not a branch circuit that is supplying the entire pool/structure for distribution.
If you build a barn or shed and put a panel in there, obviously it needs a GES. Now out of that barn you run (8) branch circuits outside for receptacles, lights, etc., would you go drive a ground rod at each circuit? What if these receptacles were mounted on wooden poles, would you have to drive a ground rod at each pole?

I don't think so!:happyno:

but yet the light(s), the chair lift, the pool cover are all easily considered a part of the pool. We are only supposed to supply a structure with one branch circuit or feeder. But I am not planning on installing a panelboard at/on the pool. And without looking somewhere in art 680 it probably needs to be at least 5 feet away from the pool anyway, which would still kind of have to put it on a separate structure, I say there is no code compliant way to have more then one branch circuit at the pool, multiwire branch circuit would be one circuit though.

 

[Little Bill]

but yet the light(s), the chair lift, the pool cover are all easily considered a part of the pool. We are only supposed to supply a structure with one branch circuit or feeder. But I am not planning on installing a panelboard at/on the pool. And without looking somewhere in art 680 it probably needs to be at least 5 feet away from the pool anyway, which would still kind of have to put it on a separate structure, I say there is no code compliant way to have more then one branch circuit at the pool, multiwire branch circuit would be one circuit though.

I started to bring up the fact that 225.30 allows only one feeder or branch circuit since 250.32 has (s) after branch circuit making it plural. I was wondering how one could contradict the other.
That's when I brought up the fact that they mean supplying power for distribution throughout the building/structure. And that goes back to my example of the barn/structure that had the panel and the branch circuits went outside away from the barn to the wooden pole (structure).

The barn is the structure receiving the feed and distributing it just like the area where the pool panel is. It then distributes the power to pool equipment, some of which may be at the pool.
You can't get away from the fact that 250.32(B) says to attach the EGC & GEC to the structure/building disconnecting means, and that ain't on the pool!:happyno:

 

[augie47]

At a recent Code seminar one of the slides was of a panel mounted in a column near a gas dispenser. After much discussion revolving around Art 514 and the "wisdom" of having a panel at that location, the moderator brought up the fact that this was a freestanding canopy island with multiple pumps and if one literally enforces 225.30, that is the correct installation method(how often do we see that as opposed to individual dispenser circuits from inside the non-attached main building)
As pointed out in this thread we often have industrial equipment located throughout plant properties likewise and farm equipment.
There are seemingly no "one size fits all" answers.

 

[iwire]

At a recent Code seminar one of the slides was of a panel mounted in a column near a gas dispenser. After much discussion revolving around Art 514 and the "wisdom" of having a panel at that location, the moderator brought up the fact that this was a freestanding canopy island with multiple pumps and if one literally enforces 225.30, that is the correct installation method(how often do we see that as opposed to individual dispenser circuits from inside the non-attached main building)
As pointed out in this thread we often have industrial equipment located throughout plant properties likewise and farm equipment.
There are seemingly no "one size fits all" answers.

I have often thought about those installations and the rules they violate (In my opinion)

 

[david]

I have often thought about those installations and the rules they violate (In my opinion)

I am currently inspecting two gas stations and this conversation was brought up by the electrician not me and I did not want to introduce it into this discussion, the electrical engineer sited the following and said that the canopy would be serviced by the gas station grew that drove around in their company vehicles. So if it's a comercial pool they could make calim to the same. But i do not see how that could be claimed for residential applications

225.30 Number of Supplies.
(E) Documented Switching Procedures. Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted to supply installations under single management where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection.


225.32 Location.
Exception No. 1: For installations under single management, where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection, and where the installation is monitored by qualified individuals, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

At a recent Code seminar one of the slides was of a panel mounted in a column near a gas dispenser. After much discussion revolving around Art 514 and the "wisdom" of having a panel at that location, the moderator brought up the fact that this was a freestanding canopy island with multiple pumps and if one literally enforces 225.30, that is the correct installation method(how often do we see that as opposed to individual dispenser circuits from inside the non-attached main building)
As pointed out in this thread we often have industrial equipment located throughout plant properties likewise and farm equipment.
There are seemingly no "one size fits all" answers.

So the real question is whether or not the canopy is a structure and each pump separate structures. IMO, based on the response to my proposal last cycle I think the camp members would look at it as I stated. I am not sure I would want a panel out there.

 

[Dugswork]

A little off topic but I was just near a country club yesterday that has a pool which was one of the first commercial jobs I worked in the 1960's {at age 13 or 14?}. All the pool circuits on the large outdoor pool were ran in brass IMC type conduit as specified by the architect. A couple of years ago I tried to buy a couple of stalks from a distributor for an artist's project and was laughed at - telling me brass conduit has never existed! It made for one heck of a ground I guess but I can't imagine what one stalk would cost these days.

 

[GoldDigger]

Try marine/naval supply distribution chains.
Or go for brass rail and thread it if necessary.