AFCI trips

[tshea]

Customer has the wonderful AFCI breakers made by Eaton. The breaker trips almost every time it is loaded.

1. Disconnected the circuit. Breaker in panel. White to neutral bar. No Trip.
2. Circuit connected. Instant trip.
3. Swapped AFCI Breakers. Instant trip.
4. Took a pigtail with light bulb only connected to AFCI breaker #1, Instant trip.
5. Took same pigtail to AFCI breaker #2. No Problem.
6. Connected circuit to AFCI Breaker #2. Instant trip.
7. Disconnected circuit to AFCI brkr #2.
8. Connected pigtail to AFCI brkr #2. Instant trip.
9. Reset brkr. No problem Light was illuminated!
10. Installed standard breaker and left.

Looking for some ideas on where to troubleshoot next...

Thanks for any and all help!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am having a hard time understanding. Is this a mwbc? Afci 1 afci 2 is a confusion. Are loads connected

 

[tom baker]

substitute a GFCI circuit breaker, if it trips then you have a neutral to ground connection. If it doesn't trip then you have a arc fault condition and will need to divide the circuit and go from there.

 

[edlee]

Customer has the wonderful AFCI breakers made by Eaton. The breaker trips almost every time it is loaded.

1. Disconnected the circuit. Breaker in panel. White to neutral bar. No Trip.
2. Circuit connected. Instant trip.
3. Swapped AFCI Breakers. Instant trip.
4. Took a pigtail with light bulb only connected to AFCI breaker #1, Instant trip.
5. Took same pigtail to AFCI breaker #2. No Problem.
6. Connected circuit to AFCI Breaker #2. Instant trip.
7. Disconnected circuit to AFCI brkr #2.
8. Connected pigtail to AFCI brkr #2. Instant trip.
9. Reset brkr. No problem Light was illuminated!
10. Installed standard breaker and left.

Looking for some ideas on where to troubleshoot next...

Thanks for any and all help!

The joy of arc-fault breakers.

 

[J.P.]

Sounds like you tried a bunch of things with results that don't make sense.
Yay! Arc faults.

I had a circuit that wouldn't take a arc fault. I unhooked every thing in the home run box and The arc fault would hold the home run itself. But anything at all hooked to it would trip the arc fault.

I ohmed everything and it all tested good. pulled apart the boxes and checked the make-ups. I even used a megger on everything. All checked clean.

Any load at all tripped the arc fault. It would hold as long as nothing plugged in was turned on. Changing breakers and phases didn't help.

I still don't know what was tripping it.
But after all of the ohming and megging I knew it wasn't a wiring or nicked insulation problem. So I put a regular breaker in and called it good.

I tried to duplicate this in the shop, but had bought a bad arc fault breaker. Once I replaced the breaker all of my test worked except the shop vac.

I honestly don't understand arc faults I guess.

Usually a electrical problem is fairly simple to nail down. I have done a ton of trouble shooting in commercial buildings. lots of times crosses/loose neutrals and bad make ups are the culprits. But these arc faults can make you chase your tail.

 

[GoldDigger]

Were you able to confirm that it was an AF trip and not a GF trip?

 

[MannyBurgos]

I am having a hard time understanding. Is this a mwbc? Afci 1 afci 2 is a confusion. Are loads connected

As Dennis asked, is this a mwbc? If it is, then a 2 pole afci breaker should do the trick. I'm really not following what you have tried but it might also be that you really do have an arc fault somewhere in your branch circuit. I would start by verifying mwbc...

 

[kwired]

I believe his mentioning of breaker #1 and #2 are just to clarify which one is involved when swapping them for one another.

He could have maybe called them "original" and "replacement" and otherwise used same wording.

 

[shortcircuit2]

So far for me the recent AFCI tripping problems have related to a neutral to ground connection somewhere in the branch circuit. One case was the neutral to ground touching because the receptacle wiring wasn't folded into the box neatly and the ground wire was up against the neutral screw on the receptacle device.

 

[Little Bill]

I had one trip just yesterday. If I hadn't been working on the circuit it might have taken a while to find what caused it. I had taken down a ceiling fan in a bedroom and replaced it with a chandelier of sorts. It was wired with lamp cord run up the chains to the outlet box. I was careful to note the "ribbed" side and used it for the neutral side. I powered it up and everything was working.
Then the lady decided she wanted it raised some so I had to take it down to remove some chain links.:rant:
I thought I had kept the neutral side of the lamp cord where I knew where it was without having to put my glasses back on to see the rib. But when I turned the switch on I had nothing. I first thought I might not have gotten a good connection and was ready to take the light down again.
I just happened to remember that she had a lamp on for me to see by and it wasn't on either. So I checked the breaker and it was tripped.

I thought maybe the neutral and bare ground was touching but it hit me that I might have got the conductors in the lamp cord reversed. Sure enough, that's what I had done.:slaphead:

I wouldn't have even realized this had it not been an AFCI breaker. I hate to admit it, but that was one time an AFCI worked as it should. I know it was the GFI part of it but it still let me know none the less.

 

[LEO2854]

If you have multy-gang switch boxes, with more than one circuit in them, I have found that some are still splicing all of the neutrals together, you must keep the neutrals from separate circuits separate. Mix them in any way and the AFCI will tripp.

 

[tshea]

Thanks everyone for jumping on this.
NO not a mwbc.
AFCI #1 & #2 were to differentiate the breakers used. FYI there are 4 more AFCI breakers in the panel that do not have any problems.
Forgot to add, I also swapped the breaker to the opposite phase in the panel. Still tripped.

The first thing I thought of was a pinched or over tight staple. Unfortunately all the drywall is up and painted.

I will try the GFCI breaker. I like that idea! That is a great idea! That's exactly why this is such a great forum!

Will definitely re-check the neutrals in the boxes where this circuit runs to and through.

I won't be back to the house until Friday. Will let you know what I find.

 

[LEO2854]

Thanks everyone for jumping on this.
NO not a mwbc.
AFCI #1 & #2 were to differentiate the breakers used. FYI there are 4 more AFCI breakers in the panel that do not have any problems.
Forgot to add, I also swapped the breaker to the opposite phase in the panel. Still tripped.

The first thing I thought of was a pinched or over tight staple. Unfortunately all the drywall is up and painted.

I will try the GFCI breaker. I like that idea! That is a great idea! That's exactly why this is such a great forum!

Will definitely re-check the neutrals in the boxes where this circuit runs to and through.

I won't be back to the house until Friday. Will let you know what I find.

You're welcome

 

[mopowr steve]

I had one trip just yesterday. If I hadn't been working on the circuit it might have taken a while to find what caused it. I had taken down a ceiling fan in a bedroom and replaced it with a chandelier of sorts. It was wired with lamp cord run up the chains to the outlet box. I was careful to note the "ribbed" side and used it for the neutral side. I powered it up and everything was working.
Then the lady decided she wanted it raised some so I had to take it down to remove some chain links.:rant:
I thought I had kept the neutral side of the lamp cord where I knew where it was without having to put my glasses back on to see the rib. But when I turned the switch on I had nothing. I first thought I might not have gotten a good connection and was ready to take the light down again.
I just happened to remember that she had a lamp on for me to see by and it wasn't on either. So I checked the breaker and it was tripped.

I thought maybe the neutral and bare ground was touching but it hit me that I might have got the conductors in the lamp cord reversed. Sure enough, that's what I had done.:slaphead:

I wouldn't have even realized this had it not been an AFCI breaker. I hate to admit it, but that was one time an AFCI worked as it should. I know it was the GFI part of it but it still let me know none the less.

An AFCI should not be able to detect that your ribbed wire was landed on the neutral or not, but most likely tripped while in the process of removing/installing fixtures when you probably inadvertently touched ground and neutral wires together. None-the-less you corrected a problem.

 

[Little Bill]

An AFCI should not be able to detect that your ribbed wire was landed on the neutral or not, but most likely tripped while in the process of removing/installing fixtures when you probably inadvertently touched ground and neutral wires together. None-the-less you corrected a problem.

The breaker would not reset. That's when I discovered the neutral & hot were reversed. I swapped them back and the breaker reset. Also, everything was fine till I had to take the light back down. I'm positive I had the wires right the first time. I had my glasses on!

I know a GFCI receptacle doesn't care if hot/neutral are reversed but the breaker did. This was all with the switch off. I believe that because the switch was open/off that something else (lamp) was on and the neutral current was stopped because the neutral at the ceiling light was connected to the hot. With the switch off it could not return and caused the GFCI breaker to sense an imbalance and trip, then not reset until the wiring was corrected.

That's my best guess, but I do know for certain that the GFCI wouldn't reset until I changed the wires back.

 

[Sierrasparky]

The breaker would not reset. That's when I discovered the neutral & hot were reversed. I swapped them back and the breaker reset. Also, everything was fine till I had to take the light back down. I'm positive I had the wires right the first time. I had my glasses on!

I know a GFCI receptacle doesn't care if hot/neutral are reversed but the breaker did. This was all with the switch off. I believe that because the switch was open/off that something else (lamp) was on and the neutral current was stopped because the neutral at the ceiling light was connected to the hot. With the switch off it could not return and caused the GFCI breaker to sense an imbalance and trip, then not reset until the wiring was corrected.

That's my best guess, but I do know for certain that the GFCI wouldn't reset until I changed the wires back.

Huh , That makes no sense. How or why would a breaker know if the load side hot and nuetral were reversed? No way , Now if there was devices that had leakage to ground maybe. but that should be detected if wired properly.
Something else amis.

 

[ptonsparky]

Huh , That makes no sense. How or why would a breaker know if the load side hot and nuetral were reversed? No way , Now if there was devices that had leakage to ground maybe. but that should be detected if wired properly.
Something else amis.

Yes, something other than polarity of fixture wires.

 

[Little Bill]

Huh , That makes no sense. How or why would a breaker know if the load side hot and nuetral were reversed? No way , Now if there was devices that had leakage to ground maybe. but that should be detected if wired properly.
Something else amis.

Yes, something other than polarity of fixture wires.

As I said before, I know a GFCI doesn't know if hot/neutral are reversed, well for sure on the load side of a GFCI receptacle anyway. But with lights and receptacles on the same breaker I thought maybe it might sense an imbalance because of a load on the receptacle and crossed wires in the ceiling box.

Although I didn't see any sparks when I connected it the second time, it might have caused a hot to neutral fault rather than just something an AFCI or GFCI might see. Although I don't know how as the switch was off.

I don't think I mentioned this but I remember as I was connecting the light the second time that I noticed another light went out. At the time I just thought the lady had turned one off near by. But when I tried to turn on the ceiling light (the switch was off) it wouldn't come on. After I checked the AFCI breaker and saw it was tripped I remembered she had a lamp on to give me some light to work by. With it being off I knew that the whole room was off. I tried to reset the breaker several times but it wouldn't reset. I then thought I had the ground and neutral touching so I took the light back down. That's when I saw that I had reversed the hot/neutral. The ground wasn't near the neutral at all. All I did was change the wires back and the breaker would then reset. I didn't investigate any further since everything was working.

So to sum up what I did:
Remove ceiling fan
Install ceiling light making sure to keep the ribbed side on the neutral
Ceiling light worked just fine
Lady wanted the light raised
Took the light down, removed chain links
Put the light back and unknowingly crossed the neutral/hot
Tried the switch, light wouldn't come on (lamp also off)
Found the AFCI tripped & wouldn't reset
Took the light canopy off, found hot neutral reversed (no exposed wires to ground)
Swapped the wires back
AFCI would then reset
Light and rest of room works fine

As Forest Gump says: "That's all I know bout that"

 

[tshea]

Installed GFCI breaker--no tripping.
Re-installed the AFCI breaker.
Took apart every connection on the circuit.
Reconnected everything one wire at a time, had my helper turn the breaker on after each re-connection was made. Everything held no problem.
Installed the light fixture (on a 3-way switch) turned breaker on and POP! It tripped.
Removed fixture, installed a pigtail and incandescent light bulb. POP!
Removed the pigtail and light bulb, reset the breaker turned it on and POP!

Installed a regular CH115 breaker, closed the panel, said I would return next week to the customer, got in my truck, and :rant:

I'm at a loss!

 

[GoldDigger]

Installed GFCI breaker--no tripping.
Re-installed the AFCI breaker.
Took apart every connection on the circuit.
Reconnected everything one wire at a time, had my helper turn the breaker on after each re-connection was made. Everything held no problem.
Installed the light fixture (on a 3-way switch) turned breaker on and POP! It tripped.
Removed fixture, installed a pigtail and incandescent light bulb. POP!
Removed the pigtail and light bulb, reset the breaker turned it on and POP!

Installed a regular CH115 breaker, closed the panel, said I would return next week to the customer, got in my truck, and :rant:

I'm at a loss!

Sounds like the 3-way switch, since that was the last change you made.
Does it only go POP! when the three way pair is in one position? If so, suspect that traveler.

High probability, no, but very easy to test.