Dwelling refrigerator

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Dennis Alwon said:
It states that the small appliance branch circuit shall serve all counter, floor , wall etc and refrigerator equipment
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Yes it does.

Then the exception changes that and tells us we can supply the outlet for refrigeration from an IBC.

That is what exceptions do, they change the main rule. :)

To me this is very clear and straight forward.
 
iwire said:
Yes it does.

Then the exception changes that and tells us we can supply the outlet for refrigeration from an IBC.

That is what exceptions do, they change the main rule. :)

To me this is very clear and straight forward.
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I am talking about a 20 amp IBC for the refrigerator not a 15-- sorry I should have clarified that
 
Dennis Alwon said:
If I supply a refrigerator with an IBC are you saying that it is not a small appliance branch circuit? Because if you are then art. 210.52(B) (1) would disagree with you, IMO
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Individual branch circuit is defined it doesn?t matter if it is a 15, 20 ,30 ???? amp circuit.

I?m saying that the refrigerator is required to be supplied by a small appliance branch circuit 20 amp only because of the area it is installed.

I?m also saying the receptacles in areas required to be supplied by the small appliance circuits have an exception that allows the refrigerator outlet to be supplied by an individual branch circuit.

As far as 210.52(B) (1) reference goes ill get back to you , I need to get the book and take a look at it in context.
 
Here it is

(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles
specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a
general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1),
Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration
equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual
branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
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To me the exception doesn?t say a 15 amp or greater dedicated small appliance branch circuit

If the refrigerator placement is in front of the receptacle outlet blocking access to the receptacle which is the norm, what difference does the it make if it is a single or duplex receptacle.

Why not say a dedicated small appliance circuit to the refrigerator.

Unless they wanted to restrict the load being supplied by that outlet and not worry about placement of the appliance.
Or if some one decides to move the refrigerator to another location at least a single receptacle might limit the load to the circuit when it is a 15 amp circuit

It says individual branch circuit to me that is sayiing something different than a dedicated small appliance circuit for the refrig.
 
david said:
If I supply my refrigerator with a 20 amp individual branch circuit and the Rec is placed at counter height just over the counter next to the refrigerator, can I supply the rest of the counter Rec with just one additional 20 amp counter circuit?
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kwired said:
I fail to see it being an "individual branch circuit" if it supplies the refrigerator and a countertop receptacle.
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That wasn?t David?s point. He was suggesting that the countertop receptacle that happens to be a simplex and that happens to have a fridge plugged into it could count as one of the two required SABCs, so that only one more would be needed. I am inclined to agree, though I suspect most of us would consider that a poor design.
kwired said:
If it is a simplex receptacle dedicated to the refrigerator then it is not serving the countertop even if located above the countertop.
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We don?t have to know or care what the homeowner chooses to plug into any given receptacle. If it is above the countertop, and if it is on a 20 amp circuit (individual or otherwise) then it is a SABC.

 
Smart $ said:
By context, the exception permits an SABC for a refrigerator to be supplied by IBC (15A or greater). The exception does not say the circuit is non-SABC.
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Neither does the exception say that it IS an SABC, and context gives us no clarification. As I said at the outset, I have some evidence that supports my point of view, and I recogize that that evidence is not overwhelming. But I do believe there is even less evidence that supports your point of view. Let's just agree that neither of us can disprove the other's viewpoint. That work for you?

 
Dennis Alwon said:
Again if I run an IBC to the refrigerator and install it on a 20 amp breaker then we must count it as one small appliance branch circuit and assign 1500 va, however if I run a 15 amp IBC to the same refrigerator I don't need to assign it 1500 va???
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That is how I read the situation. It's probably the only place in the NEC that has such a strange set of requirements. :happyno:

 
charlie b said:

That wasn?t David?s point. He was suggesting that the countertop receptacle that happens to be a simplex and that happens to have a fridge plugged into it could count as one of the two required SABCs, so that only one more would be needed. I am inclined to agree, though I suspect most of us would consider that a poor design.
We don?t have to know or care what the homeowner chooses to plug into any given receptacle. If it is above the countertop, and if it is on a 20 amp circuit (individual or otherwise) then it is a SABC.
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I was suggesting the 20 amp circuit serving receptacles in these areas could ware two hats. And by design (placement being one of the design chooses ) it will be one or the other.

A 20 amp individual branch circuit designed to supply the refrigerator could very easily take off that hat a put on the hat of a small appliance branch circuit just by changing the intended design of the circuit.

In my example move the 20 amp single rec. just a few inches until it is blocked by the refrigerator and it in no way could be considered one of the two or more small appliance branch circuits for the purpose of supplying the counters.

You could still design it as a small appliance branch circuit even if it is one single receptacle on its own circuit blocked so that the refrigerator is the only appliance that is intendant to use the rec.

My conclusion is a 20 amp circuit in the areas being discussed by design is either an individual branch circuit for the purpose of supplying a single refrigerator or it is a 20 amp small appliance branch circuit

The small appliance branch circuit could have as many rec. as you choose to add in the areas allowable by the small appliance branch circuit restrictions.

These circuits are not both by design they are one or the other ether a individual branch circuit or a small appliance branch circuit.

As pointed out in this thread some have suggested that if designed as a small appliance branch circuit then a 1500 load calculation becomes a consideration

There is no such load calculation considered if designed as an individual branch circuit supplying a single refrigerator. When designing an individual circuit the load is limited to a specific appliance. However the circuit is not extending to other receptacle unless it is no longer considered an individual circuit and considered a small appliance branch circuit

The 15 amp individual branch circuit is restricted by design to a s pacific load and does not have the option of two hats as its sister 20 amp individual branch circuit does.

The 15 amp circuit is an individual branch circuit an never could be extended to other loads an can not be reasonablev ever consider a small appliance branch circuit
 
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david said:
There is no such load calculation considered if designed as an individual branch circuit supplying a single refrigerator. When designing an individual circuit the load is limited to a specific appliance. However the circuit is not extending to other receptacle unless it is no longer considered an individual circuit and considered a small appliance branch circuit
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David it sounds like you are just saying your opinion. The refrigerator installed with a 20 amp IBC is, IMO still part of the small appliance branch circuit just as it is stated in 220.52. The fact That I choose to make it an individual circuit or not does not or should not change what it is called.

In terms of the 15 amp IBC for a Refrigerator-- IDK-- it seems that if the 20 amp is considered a small appliance branch circuit for the frig. then the 15 amp cir ought to be also but there is a large difference in calculating it at 1500va vs perhaps 600 or 700 va.

If I am to calculate any small appliance branch circuit over the req. two at 1500va and 220.52 tells us the refrigerator is part of the sabc then if I i9nstall it on an IBC it should be calculated at 1500va.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The refrigerator installed with a 20 amp IBC is, IMO still part of the small appliance branch circuit just as it is stated in 220.52.
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The exception to 220.52 tells you that you are not required to calculate the individual branch circuit for the refrigerator as a small appliance branch circuit. It makes no distinction as to circuit rating (15 vs. 20 vs. 30A.)

IMO, 220.14(A) would apply tho the IBC for the refrigerator.
 
220.52 exceptions tells us not to calculate the refrigerator when installed as exception 2 allows in 210.52(B) . This is when we have a 15 amp cir. I don't see where it excludes the 20 amp cir
 
Dennis Alwon said:
David it sounds like you are just saying your opinion. The refrigerator installed with a 20 amp IBC is, IMO still part of the small appliance branch circuit just as it is stated in 220.52. The fact That I choose to make it an individual circuit or not does not or should not change what it is called.

In terms of the 15 amp IBC for a Refrigerator-- IDK-- it seems that if the 20 amp is considered a small appliance branch circuit for the frig. then the 15 amp cir ought to be also but there is a large difference in calculating it at 1500va vs perhaps 600 or 700 va.

If I am to calculate any small appliance branch circuit over the req. two at 1500va and 220.52 tells us the refrigerator is part of the sabc then if I i9nstall it on an IBC it should be calculated at 1500va.
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Dennis its just that I don?t agree that the individual branch circuit as allowed by the exception is a small appliance branch circuit.

Look at an example of 100 apartments in a multi-family dwelling.

Assume by design three 20 amp circuits will supply all the circuits in the discussion areas.
The min would be two small appliance circuits per dwelling.
You could choose the design option of calculating 1500 VA X 2 00
Design the third 20 amp circuit as an individual branch circuit at the actual load of the appliance branch circuit. For discussion purposes an appliance with a 840 VA load x 100 units

The second design choose of designing the dwelling units with three small appliance branch circuits

I know the design advantage in a multi-family dwelling was already clear in your thinking.

I just wanted to clarify from my point of view the designer would have to consider the tradeoffs of using either a small appliance branch circuit (1500 VA) or the individual branch circuit with the restriction of not extending that circuit to other loads when calculating the load for the circuit at the actual VA load
 
charlie b said:
Neither does the exception say that it IS an SABC, and context gives us no clarification.
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When I said "by context" I was including the exception to 220.52...

charlie b said:
Neither does the exception say that it IS an SABC, and context gives us no clarification.
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..where it infers it is an SABC.

charlie b said:
As I said at the outset, I have some evidence that supports my point of view, and I recogize that that evidence is not overwhelming. But I do believe there is even less evidence that supports your point of view. Let's just agree that neither of us can disprove the other's viewpoint. That work for you?
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I concur the [your :roll:] evidence is not overwhelming... and I believe there's more to support my conclusion.

And even though I believe I have disproved you viewpoint, I can agree that neither of us will concede. :D
 
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