Dwelling refrigerator

[kwired]

Again if I run an IBC to the refrigerator and install it on a 20 amp breaker then we must count it as one small appliance branch circuit and assign 1500 va, however if I run a 15 amp IBC to the same refrigerator I don't need to assign it 1500 va???

That is the way I read it. The 15 amp circuit is sort of up to debate as to whether or not it technically is a SABC, but exception to 220.52(A) specifically says we don't need to count that 15 amp circuit permitted by exception for a refrigerator - so whether or not it is a SABC kind of doesn't matter too much, but I still think it is a SABC with certain permissions that don't apply to a regular SABC, mostly because it is covered by rules that otherwise cover SABC's.


Should have maybe read other unread posts before replying, some of this has been covered:ashamed1:

 

[ActionDave]

It can't be a SABC unless it is a 20A circuit.

 

[Smart $]

It can't be a SABC unless it is a 20A circuit.

Note 210.11(C)(1) does not say an SABC must be 20A. It is simply saying there must be two or more 20A circuits for the receptacles enumerated in 210.52(B).

The point I'm trying to make here is that a Small Appliance Branch Circuit is not defined. However, Appliance Branch Circuit is (Article 100: Branch Circuit, Appliance) and I see nothing in there that says anything about having to be a 20A circuit. There is no restriction from running a 15A appliance branch circuit in say the garage. We could eve call it a small-appliance branch circuit because it has no bearing on 210.11(C)(1), 210.52(B), or 220.52. The 20A circuit rating is a condition of installation for certain SABC's... not all.

 

[david]

Note 210.11(C)(1) does not say an SABC must be 20A. It is simply saying there must be two or more 20A circuits for the receptacles enumerated in 210.52(B).

The point I'm trying to make here is that a Small Appliance Branch Circuit is not defined. However, Appliance Branch Circuit is (Article 100: Branch Circuit, Appliance) and I see nothing in there that says anything about having to be a 20A circuit. There is no restriction from running a 15A appliance branch circuit in say the garage. We could eve call it a small-appliance branch circuit because it has no bearing on 210.11(C)(1), 210.52(B), or 220.52. The 20A circuit rating is a condition of installation for certain SABC's... not all.

Lets not leave out the definition for an individual branch circuit.

I do not see any where in the code that mentions a small appliance branch circuit. I do however see mention of 20 amp small appliance branch circuits.

I also see mention of an individual branch circuit 15 amps or greater.

From the commentary :
"Exception No. 2 to 210.52(B)(1) allows a choice for refrigeration equipment receptacle outlets located in a kitchen or similar area. An individual 15-ampere or larger branch circuit may serve this equipment, or it may be included in the 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuit."

As we always say the commentary carries no wait in a discussion but at least some one agrees with those of us that believe that the small appliance branch circuit is a different animal than the individual branch circuit allowed by the exception. The commentary states that it is a choose to supply the refrigeration equipment off the a 20 amp small appliance circuit or supply it from an individual branch circuit

I like to think I am right often, I am however convinced, I may not often get what I like

 

[david]

Interesting that mike holt has the refrigerator listed in the dwelling calculation along with water heaters etc.

Dennis its just that I don?t agree that the individual branch circuit as allowed by the exception is a small appliance branch circuit.

Look at an example of 100 apartments in a multi-family dwelling.

Assume by design three 20 amp circuits will supply all the circuits in the discussion areas.
The min would be two small appliance circuits per dwelling.
You could choose the design option of calculating 1500 VA X 2 00
Design the third 20 amp circuit as an individual branch circuit at the actual load of the appliance branch circuit. For discussion purposes an appliance with a 840 VA load x 100 units

The second design choose of designing the dwelling units with three small appliance branch circuits

I know the design advantage in a multi-family dwelling was already clear in your thinking.

I just wanted to clarify from my point of view the designer would have to consider the tradeoffs of using either a small appliance branch circuit (1500 VA) or the individual branch circuit with the restriction of not extending that circuit to other loads when calculating the load for the circuit at the actual VA load

If you ever could consider that the individual branch circuit for the refrig. equipment disassociates itself from the small appliance branch circuits and the 1500 VA calculation consideration.

Looking at the above example 220 .53 appliance loads comes into consideration

840 VA x 100 units x 70% (250.53 NFPA 70 2008)

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you ever could consider that the individual branch circuit for the refrig. equipment disassociates itself from the small appliance branch circuits and the 1500 Amp calculation consideration.

Looking at the above example 220 .53 appliance loads comes into consideration

840 VA x 100 units x 70% (250.53 NFPA 70 2008)

Yeah I figured that out that the refrigerator in the calc. is for other units in the house That are not in the kitchen

 

[david]

Yeah I figured that out that the refrigerator in the calc. is for other units in the house That are not in the kitchen

Actually I would like you to consider that it would apply to the units in the kitchen as well if supplied from an individual branch circuit

 

[david]

So for the sake of debate , say someone decides to engineer a 6x6 commercial refer unit in their residence because they've 99 kids

I would imagine the EX is there to allow addressing such debaucheries

~RJ~

though I am not sure if refrigeration equipment would be included, some other codes (part of the building codes) have provision stating commercial rated equipment cannot be installed in dwelling units

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Actually I would like you to consider that it would apply to the units in the kitchen as well if supplied from an individual branch circuit

I have considered it and rejected that notion. I still see the refrigerator in a kitchen as part of the small appliance branch circuit and don't see a need to calculate it as stated in 220.52. Why would you calculate the refrigerator if it was on an IBC but not when it is part of a small appliance branch circuit? It does not make sense.

Of course the argument here is almost moot as none of this will probably ever make a difference in the service size.

 

[david]

I have considered it and rejected that notion. I still see the refrigerator in a kitchen as part of the small appliance branch circuit and don't see a need to calculate it as stated in 220.52. Why would you calculate the refrigerator if it was on an IBC but not when it is part of a small appliance branch circuit? It does not make sense.

Of course the argument here is almost moot as none of this will probably ever make a difference in the service size.

You would have to consider the reason for the refrigerator being on its own circuit as a design choose when you simply do not want food spoilage from over current protection from other loads.

So you choose to put a 7 amp refrigerator on its own circuit as a designer (professional).

Should you have to meet the 1500 VA threshold for a small Appliance, and in a multifamily dwelling
In a multi family dwelling the individual Branch circuit gives you the design choose of using the appliance name plate rating. And further gives you the advantage of the four or more fixed appliances and use of the 70% demand rating

But I know you know all that so it was put out there for others to consider,

I think this is all I can add to this, and at this point I'm not trying to change your point of view, just something to think about.

 

[Smart $]

Lets not leave out the definition for an individual branch circuit.

Not leaving it out... just didn't mention it because it has no weight on the matter, regardless of what anyone says. Let me elaborate and dispel those notions. First, the actual wording of the pertinent definitions:

Branch Circuit, Appliance. A branch circuit that supplies
energy to one or more outlets to which [a single] appliances are [is] to be
connected and that has no permanently connected lumi-
naires that are not a part of an appliance.

...

Branch Circuit, Individual. A branch circuit that supplies
only one utilization equipment.

Highlighted with mod's to emphasize singular vernacular.

So we have a branch circuit that supplies 1) one outlet to which an appliance is to be connected AND 2) only one utilization equipment. Logic dictates if the criteria of two definitions are exhibited by one item, the item is both concurrently.

Let's dispel another notion while I'm at it, i.e. using a simplex vs. duplex receptacle. The definition says "supplies only one utilization equipment." Using a duplex receptacle has no bearing on the issue. In fact, you can wire up twenty duplex receptacles on the circuit and it will still be an IBC so long as not more than one utilization equipment is plugged in at a time (or energized, depending on one's interpretation of supplies in this context).

Another notion that popped up was that a refrigerator is a large appliance. I'll counter that notion with perhaps the Code intent in using small is not to signify comparison of physical size, but rather the load size... i.e. an appliance presenting a small load to the electrical system.

I do not see any where in the code that mentions a small appliance branch circuit. I do however see mention of 20 amp small appliance branch circuits.

I also see mention of an individual branch circuit 15 amps or greater.

I highlighted defined terms (2-ABC, 1-IBC). As noted above, one circuit can be both ABC and IBC. Everything else associated coupled with those terms is a modification of the criteria for the purpose(s) at hand... but they do not limit the general terms for other purposes.

From the commentary :
"Exception No. 2 to 210.52(B)(1) allows a choice for refrigeration equipment receptacle outlets located in a kitchen or similar area. An individual 15-ampere or larger branch circuit may serve this equipment, or it may be included in the 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuit."

In no way does that contradict the concept that one circuit can be both an IBC and an ABC{SABC}.

On top of that, you have to take into consideration when analyzing context that titles have bearing, including ordinate titles. For example, 210.11(C)(1) falls under 220.11 general title and what it infers: Branch Circuits Required. 20A small appliance branch circuits are required per sections already mentioned... but a 15A or greater refrigerator IBC is not. Thus 210.11(C)(1) has no bearing on whether the refrigerator circuit is also an SABC.

I like to think I am right often, I am however convinced, I may not often get what I like

This may very well be one of those times...

 

[david]

Not leaving it out... just didn't mention it because it has no weight on the matter, regardless of what anyone says. Let me elaborate and dispel those notions. First, the actual wording of the pertinent definitions:


Highlighted with mod's to emphasize singular vernacular.

So we have a branch circuit that supplies 1) one outlet to which an appliance is to be connected AND 2) only one utilization equipment. Logic dictates if the criteria of two definitions are exhibited by one item, the item is both concurrently.

Let's dispel another notion while I'm at it, i.e. using a simplex vs. duplex receptacle. The definition says "supplies only one utilization equipment." Using a duplex receptacle has no bearing on the issue. In fact, you can wire up twenty duplex receptacles on the circuit and it will still be an IBC so long as not more than one utilization equipment is plugged in at a time (or energized, depending on one's interpretation of supplies in this context).

Another notion that popped up was that a refrigerator is a large appliance. I'll counter that notion with perhaps the Code intent in using small is not to signify comparison of physical size, but rather the load size... i.e. an appliance presenting a small load to the electrical system.



I highlighted defined terms (2-ABC, 1-IBC). As noted above, one circuit can be both ABC and IBC. Everything else associated coupled with those terms is a modification of the criteria for the purpose(s) at hand... but they do not limit the general terms for other purposes.


In no way does that contradict the concept that one circuit can be both an IBC and an ABC{SABC}.

On top of that, you have to take into consideration when analyzing context that titles have bearing, including ordinate titles. For example, 210.11(C)(1) falls under 220.11 general title and what it infers: Branch Circuits Required. 20A small appliance branch circuits are required per sections already mentioned... but a 15A or greater refrigerator IBC is not. Thus 210.11(C)(1) has no bearing on whether the refrigerator circuit is also an SABC.


This may very well be one of those times...

It sounds like you are saying that since a ((20 amp) ?small appliance ? branch circuit) or if you prefer small appliance branch circuit ,is not defined than it follows logic that it is defined by the parent definition of appliance branch circuit and then secondly individual branch circuit both, actually all three could be multi outlet circuits.

But by your parameters both the individual branch circuit (defined as only one utilization equipment circuit) and the appliance branch circuit (defined as only one appliance circuit).

So clarify if you would the 20 amp small appliance branch circuit twhen installed as a multi- outlet branch circuit but is not a circuit defined as for one appliance.

By that departure from the parent definition by not being defined as for just one appliance does that not dictate that it has to have its unique appliance branch circuit definition?

 

[david]

It sounds like you are saying that since a ((20 amp) ?small appliance ? branch circuit) or if you prefer small appliance branch circuit ,is not defined than it follows logic that it is defined by the parent definition of appliance branch circuit and then secondly individual branch circuit both, actually all three could be multi outlet circuits.

But by your parameters both the individual branch circuit (defined as only one utilization equipment circuit) and the appliance branch circuit (defined as only one appliance circuit).

So clarify if you would the 20 amp small appliance branch circuit twhen installed as a multi- outlet branch circuit but is not a circuit defined as for one appliance.

By that departure from the parent definition by not being defined as for just one appliance does that not dictate that it has to have its unique appliance branch circuit definition?

If you ask me, and I know that you?re not to pick a parent definition which to define a 20 amp small appliance circuit by , I would have picked , Branch circuit multi outlet.

And if you asked me to define a 20 amp small appliance branch circuit, I would have taken from the parent definition. A 20 amp multi outlet branch circuit for kitchen type small appliances

 

[david]

This has been a nice distraction the last few days but as the lyrics from a favorite song of my mothers

When the house is burning to the ground there is just no time to stand around rearranging all the pictures on the wall.

Our seven year old is spiking tempters mostly at night 102 and 103 degrees, the doctors at children?s hospital cannot determine why. I?m going to focus my attention there, not that I won?t pop back in . It seems I get into these discussions and other responsibilities pull me away, I just don?t like to leave the impression that this is a hit and run,.

 

[Smart $]

...

Our seven year old is spiking tempters mostly at night 102 and 103 degrees, the doctors at children?s hospital cannot determine why. I?m going to focus my attention there, not that I won?t pop back in . It seems I get into these discussions and other responsibilities pull me away, I just don?t like to leave the impression that this is a hit and run,.

Consider the discussion tabled.