Recent fail inspection

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Imo, if you do a panel change then you are responsible for labeling the panel. If you added a circuit to an unlabeled panel then, IMO you only need to label the circuit you worked on. I agree with Trevor--- 408.4 says it all.

Michael, I bet you knew I was going to say that....hahaha
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Imo, if you do a panel change then you are responsible for labeling the panel. If you added a circuit to an unlabeled panel then, IMO you only need to label the circuit you worked on. I agree with Trevor--- 408.4 says it all.

Michael, I bet you knew I was going to say that....hahaha
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Yes, I kind of figured that! :)
 
infinity said:
Safety issue or not the labeling is required. If it wasn't in your bid you'll have to eat it to pass the inspection. Next time you can add in the additional time and charge more money.
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I agree, the panel should be labeled when the circuits are originally installed. The problem I have is "charge more money." I feel we are being used. I feel that hacks are coming in because we are charging more money.

I been doing this a while now and have heard the same complaint, you electricians charge way to much. You think maybe that is why the hacks are out there and why home owners are doing their own electrical work?

One would think that maybe the inspection agencies would take this in consideration.

Also I just move into this new area and I'm not use to this requirement. Where I came from the inspection agencies understood what the big picture was and did not require the aforementioned labeling.
 
Michael15956 said:
You need to tone it down!

I installed the panel, but I did not install the said circuits and I did not modify the said circuits
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If you didn't install the circuits, how did those wires get into the new panel?
I don't like to label panels on change-outs either but know that it is required. I figure time in for that and adding smokes if they don't have them in the required places. I do give them the option of installing the smokes (battery type) themselves to save a little.
 
Need to walk the dog now, but in the mean time any thoughts about section 408.4 not being taken retroactively? In other words applying to new circuit installations only.
 
Little Bill said:
If you didn't install the circuits, how did those wires get into the new panel?
I don't like to label panels on change-outs either but know that it is required. I figure time in for that and adding smokes if they don't have them in the required places. I do give them the option of installing the smokes (battery type) themselves to save a little.
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OK, I will answer this question with another question before I walk the dog. Why don't we have to install GFCIs & AFCIs on panel swaps? What is more important? I think Dennis wrote that one.

I guess I'm just not a sheep. I want something more than, just do what is said to do and shut up. That last line was about me only, I'm not calling anyone here a sheep
 
Michael15956 said:
Need to walk the dog now, but in the mean time any thoughts about section 408.4 not being taken retroactively? In other words applying to new circuit installations only.
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Obviously in the jurisdiction where you have been working in the past they must agree with you. In the jurisdiction where you have a failed inspection it's just as obvious they disagree with you.

The AHJ is called that for a reason. The "A" stands for authority.

You may not be a sheep but goats also end up in the butchers window.
 
Michael15956 said:
I recently failed an inspection for not labeling a panel change out at a house. I did label all the 30 & 50 amp circuits but there were about 15-17 circuits all 15 & 20 amps which were not labeled in the old breaker panel. This is a 150 year old house, 3 floors & knob & tube wiring with some newer romex, typical stuff. I did not want to charge the customer to label all there circuits because it would have taken some time and if I did include this time in my quotes I wouldn't get another change out job.

Met with the inspection agency and complain that this requirement would required some time to complete and that it would increase the cost of panel change outs. The agency did not change there position. They said it could be done in a few minutes. I did not agree with that because I have completed work like this and it can take some time.
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Well, I guess you could have just labeled every breaker with something convincing looking. What, are they going to check that breaker #12 actually supplies power to bedroom #3? :D
 
Michael15956 said:
I agree, the panel should be labeled when the circuits are originally installed. The problem I have is "charge more money." I feel we are being used. I feel that hacks are coming in because we are charging more money.

I been doing this a while now and have heard the same complaint, you electricians charge way to much. You think maybe that is why the hacks are out there and why home owners are doing their own electrical work?

One would think that maybe the inspection agencies would take this in consideration.
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I don't even know how to respond to that!

It doesn't look like this topic is really about labeling panels but rather how to operate a profitable business.

-Hal
 
Since my business philosophy has been brought to bear, I'm an advocate for my customers. It is not about how much money can I make, it's about, is this a necessary and important expense.
 
Michael15956 said:
Since my business philosophy has been brought to bear, I'm an advocate for my customers. It is not about how much money can I make, it's about, is this a necessary and important expense.
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As an electrical contractor, it should not be a stretch to think labeling a panel is a necessary and important expense. We typically spend a half hour or so labeling, if need be. If we can't find some circuits, we leave them off and let the customer know when they find something not working to label the circuit breaker when they find it. Of course, we check the obvious fridge, freezer, sump pump, smoke alarm, etc and other potential critical circuits before leaving something off.

If you only have customers that look at the price and not the value you are giving them, then your sales pitch may need some tuning up. Or you are targeting the wrong customer base.

We have enough work over here, that we can give them a good job or no job. The price is what it is. They are welcome to get other quotes. I take as much time as needed to explain what and why I'm quoting something the way I am, and a good portion of customers are receptive to it. Even when they realize the price is higher than they anticipated.

Just two weeks ago, I had two different resi customers in one day agree to service changes when I was there for other minor issues but realized the work we were looking at taking care of was nothing compared to the issues with their services.
 
Jraef said:
I once got nailed for a room addition I did on a house. I put in new hard-wired smoke detectors in the new rooms per code. The inspector wrote me up for the fact that in the rest of the house, they had only battery powered smokes. I argued that I did no work on the older part of the house, not even a cut-in to existing wiring. All I did was the new addition, new wiring, all per submitted and approved plans.
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When I was in the same situation, all I needed to do was add one hard-wired detector in the existing part of the house, so I drilled through the band joist/header beam above the doorway that was a window, and cut in an old-work box about two feet in.

I won, but as many people know if you win a battle with an AHJ, you usually lose the war, because he started nitpicking me for EVERYTHING after that.
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My experience has been that they make sure they're right before citing me, because they know I'm assertive, even though I'm polite and civil. I have challenged four failures over the years and "won" each time; I made sure I was right first. :happyyes:
 
Jraef said:
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I once got nailed for a room addition I did on a house. I put in new hard-wired smoke detectors in the new rooms per code. The inspector wrote me up for the fact that in the rest of the house, they had only battery powered smokes. I argued that I did no work on the older part of the house, not even a cut-in to existing wiring. All I did was the new addition, new wiring, all per submitted and approved plans. I won, but as many people know if you win a battle with an AHJ, you usually lose the war, because he started nitpicking me for EVERYTHING after that.
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FWIW, we can speak to the published NEC, but some states, either in the amended electrical code or elsewhere in building codes, require an upgrade to hard wired smokes when more than a certain amount of work is done or when the house is sold.
In some cases local AC power with RF interconnection is acceptable.
 
Michael15956 said:
Since my business philosophy has been brought to bear, I'm an advocate for my customers. It is not about how much money can I make, it's about, is this a necessary and important expense.
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Again, I'm speechless. :?

I don't think anybody here advocates taking advantage of their customers, but your philosophy will only get you into the poor house.

-Hal
 
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Many panels I come across have all single poles other than the 20a kitchen sabc's just marked "gen lighting"

I'm sure this is a short cut for many electricians, rather than taking time to identify more specifically.
 
Michael15956 said:
Since my business philosophy has been brought to bear, I'm an advocate for my customers. It is not about how much money can I make, it's about, is this a necessary and important expense.
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I am curious, if you knew before hand that you would have to do this labeling how much more would you have added to your price to do the work?
 
Michael often works alone so I think labeling the panel is a real pita. I have actually gotten the homeowner to help. We were there for something else and she wanted to get the panel labeled. I said sure but she had to help-- she was happy to oblige.
 
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