Recent fail inspection

[kwired]

With an occupied house there can be consequences to flipping each breaker off multiple times to trace all the circuits that way.
A live circuit tracer is great if you can justify the expense.

Did you not already disrupt power when you disconnected each circuit from the old panel?

Occupied house - panel change, occupants should be expecting things to go down while you are there.

If something is very critical - maybe health care related items - battery backup is important even when there isn't an electrician working on premises.

 

[kwired]

I don’t understand why you don’t turn them on one at a time when your ready to re-energize and see what comes on.
Then label it...

As well as pay attention to what goes off when unhooking from old panel - in some instances, if you kill the entire service before unhooking then I guess you are out of luck, but even if you don't want to work it while panel is live - can shut circuits off one at a time and catch at least some of what needs to be labeled at this stage.

 

[kwired]

We just come up with designations based on geographical location, for example: 2nd Floor NE Bedroom Lt's & Rec's. You cannot say Gina's Room lights and receptacles.

I have always done the "NE bedroom" approach even before NEC clearly disallowed "Gina's room", but have occasionally run into the house that got moved and is no longer oriented the same way it originally was.

Someone I know really well moved his house, family farm...with old farmhouse, he put a lot of work into it over years, then had a fallout with a brother on farm matters attorneys got involved ...etc. Bottom line he got to keep the house, but had to move it to his new location. I asked him if it took some getting used to when the sun now shines in his bedroom window in morning when that room used to be on west side of house. One thing to move to a new house and have such a change but another to still be in same house and things like this are now different.

 

[LarryFine]

Forgot to mention before: If the existing panel is decently marked, I write the circuit number on the face of the existing breaker as I take it apart, and either transfer the number to the cable sheath or use wire number tags, make notes when landing the wires, and reference the old panel label when labeling the new one.

 

[growler]

Line #2 of the section mandates that the identification include an "approved degree of detail that allows each circuit to be "distinguished from all others". Wow where do I go to get this "approved degree"?.

Approved means approved by the authority having jurisdiction ( electrical inspector). There is really a limited amount of room on a panel schedule for details.

I have learned not to fill in the panel schedule until I have an idea what I'm going to list. I use a legal pad to identify the circuits to the best of my ability. I have learned that in these old houses that the master bath and the master bedroom may be the same circuit. If it turns out to be this way I list it as master bath & master bedroom.

You can make things simple by identifying circuits that you would expect to find. If there is a washer & dryer then the washer is normally a dedicated circuit. Furnaces dedicated, Garage door openers, counter tops, dishwasher and maybe disposal, microwave (if there is one).

There are normally lots of circuits that can be labeled clearly.

 

[kwired]

Forgot to mention before: If the existing panel is decently marked, I write the circuit number on the face of the existing breaker as I take it apart, and either transfer the number to the cable sheath or use wire number tags, make notes when landing the wires, and reference the old panel label when labeling the new one.

Same here, in particular with the 120 volt circuits (in dwellings). Often the 240 volt circuits are somewhat obvious, only one circuit is 6-3 or 8-3 - usually is the range, 10-3 almost always the dryer unless there is a cooktop or oven that needs a neutral.

 

[Michael15956]

Michael, you are over thinking. The section does not state that every receptacle has to be labeled. It says an approved degree of detail-- this is up to the authority having jurisdiction to decide. Simply writing receptacle is not accepted but if you write 2nd floor bedroom & Guest room receptacles then it isn't an issue. If there is a receptacle in there that comes from another circuit then don't loose sleep over it. You want to get the basic plan. No one is looking for perfection.

To say it is better to not do it at all vs doing a job that falls short of perfection is just incorrect.

Dennis, I agree, every receptacle does not have to be labeled, but 408.4 mandates every circuit does, which is no problem with newly installed circuit(s).

I like how you complete your labeling in the panel swaps but they fall short of the aforementioned mandates when a second circuit is not located in your example of the 2nd floor bedroom. What I'm trying to get across here is, it's nearly impossible to find every unlabeled circuit and label it on a panel swap, especially in an occupied home.

I also understand your position of do the job as best as you can and don't lose sleep over it, but if every receptacle on an unlabeled circuit(s) is not checked then the job is not complete and becomes a violation of the code. If someone should receive a shock on the said second circuit when they think all the receptacles in this bedroom were only on one circuit who's at fault? Who is going to get a phone call and have to answer why? We will, we will have to explain why we charged them money and did not do a complete job.

Bottom line, 408.4 needs some work.

In the mean time, I will try not to label said circuits

 

[hbiss]

I agree that you should tag all your circuits as they have been marked and the breaker size before taking the old panel apart. I keep a box of paper tags with strings on the truck for that.
And pay attention to how things were connected. Learned that the hard way, way back, when the switch loop for the oil burner safety switch at the top of the stairs was brought into the panel and spliced there. When I wired the new panel I thought it was another circuit and it would trip the breaker because the switch was on.

Also, you can easily identify the "big stuff" right off, like the 20A circuits, A/C, water heater etc. Sometimes that can account for half the panel right there.

I did a panel "re-organization" when adding some circuits, and re-labeled the entire panel as part of the job (time was paid for). There were two 1p breakers which we never identified, so we labeled them "unknown". The inspector accepted that designation as being accurate.

Ahh, the oft encountered mystery breaker! Sometimes I leave it off in the hopes that the customer will call and say something isn't working. But they never do which means that something has been cut or disconnected someplace and the breaker really should be removed. I always bring to the customer's attention that there is a breaker that we can't determine what it's for, that I left it off and if they see something not working turn it on. That way we'll know where it goes.

-Hal

 

[Michael15956]

Forgot to mention before: If the existing panel is decently marked, I write the circuit number on the face of the existing breaker as I take it apart, and either transfer the number to the cable sheath or use wire number tags, make notes when landing the wires, and reference the old panel label when labeling the new one.

Same here when the circuits are labeled. I put a number on the hot wire(s) and write down the description in a notebook or phone.

 

[hbiss]

I also understand your position of do the job as best as you can and don't lose sleep over it, but if every receptacle on an unlabeled circuit(s) is not checked than the job is not complete and becomes a violation of the code. If someone should receive a shock on the said second circuit when they think all the receptacles in this bedroom were only on one circuit who's at fault? Who is going to get a phone call and have to answer why? We will, we will have to explain why we charged them money and did not do a complete job.

Bottom line, 408.4 needs some work.

In the mean time, I will try not to label said circuits

Who's at fault? The person who got shocked because they obviously don't have any business doing what they are doing. A professional doesn't assume that by turning off a breaker (no matter what it says) that something is not energized. They know to check it.



-Hal

 

[growler]

Who's at fault? The person who got shocked because they obviously don't have any business doing what they are doing. A professional doesn't assume that by turning off a breaker (no matter what it says) that something is not energized. They know to check it.



-Hal

Had light fixtures in three bed rooms that didn't turn off when the switches were turned off. The switches were for switched receptacles. Someone (homeowner or handyman) had replaced either lights with pull chains or ceiling fans with regular fixtures and then wondered why the lights wouldn't turn off. In those same rooms someone had the polarity revered on the circuits so they were actually switching neutrals.

The hack wiring that you find in houses is endless.

The same house, built in 1978 I found wiring that had been cut in to wire closet lights that was old cloth covered 2 wire NM. I figure they must have scraped it out of an even older house.

 

[growler]

If someone should receive a shock on the said second circuit when they think all the receptacles in this bedroom were only on one circuit who's at fault? Who is going to get a phone call and have to answer why? We will, we will have to explain why we charged them money and did not do a complete job.

Have you ever herd of anyone getting a call like that? I haven't.

 

[roger]

I label the panel the way the owner wants me to, the inspector has no say in the matter. If the owner wants me to call little Bobby's room the Loud Room that's what I will put on the legend, if they want the refrigerator labeled Cold Beer so be it, if they want the bathroom called...…, well use your imagination that's what it will be.

To the inspector that may not like it I say go pound sand.

Roger

 

[hbiss]

You might want to read 408.4, particularly the last sentence:

408.4 Field Identification Required
(A) Circuit Directory or Circuit Identification. Every circuit and circuit modification shall be legibly identified as to its clear, evident, and specific purpose or use. The identification shall include sufficient detail to allow each circuit to be distinguished from all others. Spare positions that contain unused overcurrent devices or switches shall be described accordingly. The identification shall be included in a circuit directory that is located on the face or inside of the panel door in the case of a panelboard, and located at each switch or circuit breaker in a switchboard. No circuit shall be described in a manner that depends on transient conditions of occupancy.

If my official Code compliant panel legend is not to their liking I will be happy to create a custom laminated directory for them that's not affixed to the panel but can be hung next to it.

Now everybody is happy.

-Hal

 

[roger]

I know what the section says and the last sentence doesn't mean anything to me or the property owner. I have had large hospitals, casinos, industrial facilities, etc.... where literally every panel legend was in violation of that sentence.

Roger

 

[ptonsparky]

I know what the section says and the last sentence doesn't mean anything to me or the property owner. I have had large hospitals, casinos, industrial facilities, etc.... where literally every panel legend was in violation of that sentence.

Roger

So that means we should perpetuate the problem and think nothing of labeling it the “green bedroom?

My spouse changes colors and decor of rooms often enough that Green or Harry Potter bedroom means nothing to me. How could I expect anyone else to know?

 

[roger]

My spouse changes colors and decor of rooms often enough that Green or Harry Potter bedroom means nothing to me. How could I expect anyone else to know?

Not my problem. Once something changes it is up to those who care to update things. When the final and C of O are done in a residence the inspector is not coming back in, so until something comes up to force something to be done another way (say selling the house) the whims and wishes of an inspector holds no weight.

In the OP's situation the panel legend could be discarded if the owner wishes to do so.

The last sentence of 408.4 is kind of like the wasted ink in Table 210.21(B)(2), have you ever heard of an inspector showing up at someone's house wanting to come in and see what they have plugged in to their receptacles?

Roger

 

[hbiss]

When the final and C of O are done in a residence the inspector is not coming back in, so until something comes up to force something to be done another way (say selling the house) the whims and wishes of an inspector holds no weight.

I don't think you understand. Circuits must be labeled, as much as possible, to exclude the personal conditions of the owner because they mean nothing to anybody else that has to work on the system or subsequent owners. It's not the "whims and wishes of an inspector", it's there in black and white.

Labeling a breaker "Johnnie's Room" means nothing to a new owner. A label such as 2nd Fl South bedroom will never be obsolete.

But I think you know all that, you are just being thick headed like the OP.

-Hal

 

[roger]

But I think you know all that, you are just being thick headed like the OP.

-Hal

No, I'm not being thick headed, you're thinking strictly in terms of a residence. Let's go to a hospital for example, they are constantly changing so they are "transient" in their very nature so it would be impossible to comply with the last sentence of 408.4. I had one addition that started with a particular area designed and commissioned as a Kidney Dialysis room and the panel legend reflected that, within two years it had been a rehab area with exercise machines, and a laundry.

Had a manufacturing facility that had buildings across the country, the rooms were labeled like "B2136, Y153, R478, etc... they had a network that could identify where each room was nation wide, these spaces continually changed as well. IMO if an inspector is going to tell the user (be it a home owner or management people) how to label a panel he is trying to be a designer. As long as the legend makes sense to those that will be looking at it down the road 408.4 has been met minus the last sentence.

Roger

 

[MAC702]

I didn't think he would, but I think Roger has convinced me. Transient is opposite to permanent. Permanent DOES NOT mean forever.

That said, I'm for details, and I hate when things aren't taken seriously. If the room changes, the label should change, and you know that's just not going to happen.