Just when I think I've seen it all

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480sparky

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Iowegia
Earlier this week, I installed a 1ph 30a circuit for a new A/C install. I arrived first thing in the morning, got the wiring ran from the panel to the disconnect, turned the breaker on, checked for voltage at the disco, then turned the breaker off so the HVAC tech would have an unenergized disco to attach to. Later that afternoon, I got a call from the tech. He said the breaker won't stay on... acts like it's shorting out.

I said there must be an issue with the condenser as I had the circuit on up to the disco with no issues. He replied the breaker slammed open so hard it broke the handle off it.

I head out the next morning to check it out. On the 45- minute drive out there, I'm wondering what could be the problem. Did the tech rewire the line conductors in the disco? Did they send me the wrong specs and install a 3-ph unit (building does have 3-ph)? All sorts of scenarios went through my mind... 3-ph being top of the list.

Upon arrival, I check the nameplate. Yep..... Phase: 1. OK, so it's not a 3-ph unit. Or at least it's not marked as such. I pull the cover off to see how many poles are on the contactor. Just two. I take my idiot pen and push it in. Nothing.

I check the disco. It's off. I flip the pullout over and check for power. Nothing.

To the panel inside I go. Breaker is in the tripped position and the busted-off handle is sitting on top of the panel. "(*#(@ tech.... broke my breaker!" I go out to the truck and grab another one. Replace the broken breaker, turn on the new one and...... no Big Blue Zot.

I go back outside and push the contactor in. The unit fires up as it should. I then go back inside, find the stat, do a 'call for cool' setting and I hear the furnace turn on. Outside, I feel the heat being pumped out by the units' fan blades. All is well with the universe now, except for my time and gas for the trip.

I toss the busted breaker in my truck, tell the owner everything's good now and head off to a better-paying job. But on the way, it kept gnawing at me.... the tech said the breaker wouldn't stay on... acted like a short. And the breaker was left in the tripped position. So where did this short come from?!?!




With not much to do today, I pulled the busted breaker and a meter out of my war wagon and, on a hunch, did a continuity test on the breaker terminals.

Shorted QO230.jpg

That's right, boys and girls: A brand-spankin-new Square D QO230 breaker with an internal short.

I couldn't get (what's left of) the handle moved to close the contacts, but there's no short on the busbar connectors. I could only get it to move halfway between tripped and off a couple times... now it's permanently jammed into this position. So the short must be downstream of the contacts.

Good thing there wasn't a short in it when I pushed it into the panel.... that would have been a surprise!

So it's back to the supply house Monday for a credit with this one. I gotta admit it.... this is the first I've ever seen something like this. In any brand of breaker. New or used.
 
Where did the original breaker come from and when? Remember several years ago there were all those counterfeit QO breakers. Some of them had even made their way into the legit supply chain. I wonder if this is somehow one of those. Are you going to open it up to see where the short is?
 
@480sparky
Didn't you say you installed the breaker and checked voltage at the disco? It apparently worked to start with if you had voltage and the voltage was correct. Something must have failed form being turned off to turning it back on.
 
@480sparky
Didn't you say you installed the breaker and checked voltage at the disco? It apparently worked to start with if you had voltage and the voltage was correct. Something must have failed form being turned off to turning it back on.

It was turned on and off at least 4 times. As a matter of practice, I cycle every breaker 3 times before installation.
 
Could you be reading something because the breaker is in the tripped position. Turn it off and see.... My guess is the breaker may still be defective but the reading may be because of the tripped position. I don't know how the inner parts work....
 
Could you be reading something because the breaker is in the tripped position. Turn it off and see.... My guess is the breaker may still be defective but the reading may be because of the tripped position. I don't know how the inner parts work....

I'm reading a direct short between the terminals. And it's stuck in the tripped position.
 
That broken handle really is the stumper, to me. Ken, you left the AC circuit energized from this QO230, and left the exterior AC disconnect off. The breaker was working at the end of your install.

The shorted breaker has no visible discolorization or damage. Except for the handle it looks manufacturer fresh.

Something caused the breaker trip, then something broke the handle. There may well have been multiple additional events between these two, as well as after the last.

There's a lot of missing information. The HVAC tech saying the breaker broke its own handle extremely strains credulity
 
That broken handle really is the stumper, to me. Ken, you left the AC circuit energized from this QO230, and left the exterior AC disconnect off. The breaker was working at the end of your install.

The shorted breaker has no visible discolorization or damage. Except for the handle it looks manufacturer fresh.

Something caused the breaker trip, then something broke the handle. There may well have been multiple additional events between these two, as well as after the last.

There's a lot of missing information. The HVAC tech saying the breaker broke its own handle extremely strains credulity

I turned the breaker off when I left so the disco would be totally unenergized.
 
When a QO breaker trips the handle moves only part way towards the off position. How could it have moved so 'hard' that the handle would snap off?
There is only one set of opening springs, so the contacts travel at a single speed, regardless if it is a trip or just being turned off.

You have to specifically ask for an inspection report if you want to know what happened.
 
When a QO breaker trips the handle moves only part way towards the off position. How could it have moved so 'hard' that the handle would snap off?
There is only one set of opening springs, so the contacts travel at a single speed, regardless if it is a trip or just being turned off.

You have to specifically ask for an inspection report if you want to know what happened.

"Inspection report"? What's that?
 
Earlier this week, I installed a 1ph 30a circuit for a new A/C install. I arrived first thing in the morning, got the wiring ran from the panel to the disconnect, turned the breaker on, checked for voltage at the disco, then turned the breaker off so the HVAC tech would have an unenergized disco to attach to. Later that afternoon, I got a call from the tech. He said the breaker won't stay on... acts like it's shorting out.

I said there must be an issue with the condenser as I had the circuit on up to the disco with no issues. He replied the breaker slammed open so hard it broke the handle off it.

I head out the next morning to check it out. On the 45- minute drive out there, I'm wondering what could be the problem. Did the tech rewire the line conductors in the disco? Did they send me the wrong specs and install a 3-ph unit (building does have 3-ph)? All sorts of scenarios went through my mind... 3-ph being top of the list.

Upon arrival, I check the nameplate. Yep..... Phase: 1. OK, so it's not a 3-ph unit. Or at least it's not marked as such. I pull the cover off to see how many poles are on the contactor. Just two. I take my idiot pen and push it in. Nothing.

I check the disco. It's off. I flip the pullout over and check for power. Nothing.

To the panel inside I go. Breaker is in the tripped position and the busted-off handle is sitting on top of the panel. "(*#(@ tech.... broke my breaker!" I go out to the truck and grab another one. Replace the broken breaker, turn on the new one and...... no Big Blue Zot.

I go back outside and push the contactor in. The unit fires up as it should. I then go back inside, find the stat, do a 'call for cool' setting and I hear the furnace turn on. Outside, I feel the heat being pumped out by the units' fan blades. All is well with the universe now, except for my time and gas for the trip.

I toss the busted breaker in my truck, tell the owner everything's good now and head off to a better-paying job. But on the way, it kept gnawing at me.... the tech said the breaker wouldn't stay on... acted like a short. And the breaker was left in the tripped position. So where did this short come from?!?!




With not much to do today, I pulled the busted breaker and a meter out of my war wagon and, on a hunch, did a continuity test on the breaker terminals.

View attachment 2552030

That's right, boys and girls: A brand-spankin-new Square D QO230 breaker with an internal short.

I couldn't get (what's left of) the handle moved to close the contacts, but there's no short on the busbar connectors. I could only get it to move halfway between tripped and off a couple times... now it's permanently jammed into this position. So the short must be downstream of the contacts.

Good thing there wasn't a short in it when I pushed it into the panel.... that would have been a surprise!

So it's back to the supply house Monday for a credit with this one. I gotta admit it.... this is the first I've ever seen something like this. In any brand of breaker. New or used.
Thats why I prohibit my guys from installing any type of breaker on a live buss! Sure, it's been done thousands of times without issue, but all it takes that one time! I had one guy call me to get permission to swap out a plug in breaker at a busy store, and didn't want to shut it down. I denied the permit, so he got the manager to let him turn it off for a few minutes. He called me back a few minutes later thanking me for not letting him do it. When he pulled the old breaker out, the buss was melted behind it, and the finger came out with the breaker!
 
When a QO breaker trips the handle moves only part way towards the off position. How could it have moved so 'hard' that the handle would snap off?
There is only one set of opening springs, so the contacts travel at a single speed, regardless if it is a trip or just being turned off.

You have to specifically ask for an inspection report if you want to know what happened.
Probably the hvac tech broke it trying to reset.
 
Could you be reading something because the breaker is in the tripped position. Turn it off and see.... My guess is the breaker may still be defective but the reading may be because of the tripped position. I don't know how the inner parts work....
I do. 2- and 3-p breakers are made of individual 1-p components. Most are 1-p bodies riveted together, but those do share a single body. There must be a mis-placed metallic part loose inside the breaker.

That it tested when installed means there was human intervention, but nothing provable.
 
Probably the hvac tech broke it trying to reset.

I find it unlikely he would be resetting it with a hammer. If it broke from him turning it on then something else was already wrong with the part and it simply happened to fail when they touched it. Sure it’s unlikely that it broke when it tripped but maybe the act of tripping caused the other issues that lead to a broken toggle. It would be interesting to see the inside of it to find out how it’s shorted inside and why it’s jammed up.


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"Inspection report"? What's that?

I believe it is a Customer Complaint Report (CCR). The part is returned to the factory and it gets evaluated by the 'Quality' group and a formal report is generated, ideally a root cause was determined and a preventative course of action outlined.

Not usually worth it for a simple 'broken handle', but might be for 'internal shorted parts'.
 
I find it unlikely he would be resetting it with a hammer. If it broke from him turning it on then something else was already wrong with the part and it simply happened to fail when they touched it. Sure it’s unlikely that it broke when it tripped but maybe the act of tripping caused the other issues that lead to a broken toggle. It would be interesting to see the inside of it to find out how it’s shorted inside and why it’s jammed up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I've seen QO handles broken before, in fact, several in one panel and they were still working. They were using them as a switch. The trip mechanism is not strong enough to break it, an arc fault that severe would damage more than the handle.
 
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