6 disconnect rule

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brett Harsha

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Portland, OR
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Senior elec designer
This is a panel and and a sub panel that is not properly protected with a main breaker as it appears it has more than 6 disconnects . Can some one identify what I believe to be a improper grounding since the service ground seem to be bonded to the ground bus in the sub panel. can't tell how it is bonded to a ground rod or any other grounding electrodes.

can you install a AFCI with out installing a ground to the receptacle.

This house has 3 prong outlets but no ground conductors to the outlets is that permitted by the NEC?

.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J2ojpy_hJ0VyKbxweGXYmiLoEjKRNswvc_PT6YMJOBs/edit
 
Can’t access your google doc.

grounded receptacles without an egc are allowed if the outlet is gfci protected. But each such outlet should be labeled as “gf protected, but no equipment ground conductor” or such. Often a gfci i outlet will come with a sheet of sticky labels for such a situation.
 
brett Harsha said:
This is a panel and and a sub panel that is not properly protected with a main breaker as it appears it has more than 6 disconnects . Can some one identify what I believe to be a improper grounding since the service ground seem to be bonded to the ground bus in the sub panel. can't tell how it is bonded to a ground rod or any other grounding electrodes.

picture will not open on my computer

can you install a AFCI with out installing a ground to the receptacle.

AFCI breaker ?? or AFCI receptaclle ?

This house has 3 prong outlets but no ground conductors to the outlets is that permitted by the NEC?

Yes IF the provisions of 406.4 are followed.

.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J2ojpy_hJ0VyKbxweGXYmiLoEjKRNswvc_PT6YMJOBs/edit
Click to expand...
 
Srv52761 said:
Can’t access your google doc.

grounded receptacles without an egc are allowed if the outlet is gfci protected. But each such outlet should be labeled as “gf protected, but no equipment ground conductor” or such. Often a gfci i outlet will come with a sheet of sticky labels for such a situation.
Click to expand...
Thank you!

Here is a link to the picture I posted on shutterfly, hopefully this works. not sure why I can't create a link.

Shutterfly

Shutterfly Photos. Finally, the perfect solution for all your photos. Effortlessly gather, quickly find, and magically create.
photos.shutterfly.com
 
brett Harsha said:
Thank you!

Here is a link to the picture I posted on shutterfly, hopefully this works. not sure why I can't create a link.

Shutterfly

Shutterfly Photos. Finally, the perfect solution for all your photos. Effortlessly gather, quickly find, and magically create.
photos.shutterfly.com
Click to expand...
Link wants me to sign in. I don't have account there, and guessing I would need to sign in to your account to see your content.
 
brett Harsha said:
This is a panel and and a sub panel that is not properly protected with a main breaker as it appears it has more than 6 disconnects . Can some one identify what I believe to be a improper grounding since the service ground seem to be bonded to the ground bus in the sub panel. can't tell how it is bonded to a ground rod or any other grounding electrodes.

can you install a AFCI with out installing a ground to the receptacle.

This house has 3 prong outlets but no ground conductors to the outlets is that permitted by the NEC?

Shutterfly

Shutterfly Photos. Finally, the perfect solution for all your photos. Effortlessly gather, quickly find, and magically create.
photos.shutterfly.com
Click to expand...
 
The general rules:

1. An installation that was compliant with the code in effect at the time does not have to be brought up to more recent codes.

2. A sub-panel in the same structure should have separate neutral and grounding conductors, and bonding not be done again.

3. A sub-panel that is in the same structure does not have to comply with the main-disconnect or six-disconnect requirements.

4. Any bonding or grounding-electrode connections should be made in the enclosure housing the structure's main disconnect.

5. Ungrounded grounding receptacles should have GFCI protection and should not have EGCs connected between receptacles.

6. AFCI and GFCI protection devices do not require an EGC to function. Ungrounded grounding receptacles should be labeled.
 
LarryFine said:
The general rules:

1. An installation that was compliant with the code in effect at the time does not have to be brought up to more recent codes.

2. A sub-panel in the same structure should have separate neutral and grounding conductors, and bonding not be done again.

3. A sub-panel that is in the same structure does not have to comply with the main-disconnect or six-disconnect requirements.

4. Any bonding or grounding-electrode connections should be made in the enclosure housing the structure's main disconnect.

5. Ungrounded grounding receptacles should have GFCI protection and should not have EGCs connected between receptacles.

6. AFCI and GFCI protection devices do not require an EGC to function. Ungrounded grounding receptacles should be labeled.
Click to expand...
Thank you

One last question, if the house wiring devices have been upgraded does that mean the panel needs to be upgraded to meet current code?

What code cycle was the 6 disconnect rule applied?
 
Love it also... doesn't work with some folks (I'll not mention names or Dennis will whack my knuckles) :)
 
Yes, my questions specific to bonding and grounding was addressed to the picture I attached wanted to know if anyone was able to identify the bonding jumper I couldn't see it.
We always run a ground wire with every feeder and branch circuit.
We don't use AFCI breakers at pumpstations or treatment plants.
If I update an installation we usually demolish all existing equipment
We don't upgrade a 30 year old 200 amp dist. Panel.
 
brett Harsha said:
Yes, my questions specific to bonding and grounding was addressed to the picture I attached wanted to know if anyone was able to identify the bonding jumper I couldn't see it.
We always run a ground wire with every feeder and branch circuit.
We don't use AFCI breakers at pumpstations or treatment plants.
If I update an installation we usually demolish all existing equipment
We don't upgrade a 30 year old 200 amp dist. Panel.
Click to expand...
Still haven't seen the picture, don't plan to log into your storage account to see it.

Try copy/paste the image in the editor for this site, seems to work most the time since the forum upgraded to current software they use.
 
Tired cutting / paste would not allow any thing other than a web address link. Online search suggested the best way to load a picture o this forum was to create a website on a site like shutter fly. Thanks, I got my questions answered.
 
You can almost always right-click on the picture, select 'copy image' (or just click on the image and use CTRL-C), then select 'paste' (or CTRL-V) in the response box.

For example:

1597607338342.png
 
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