Conduit required in a church?

[Stevenfyeager]

We have to add some soffit outside lights in a church. Indiana is still using 2008 NEC. Didn’t there use to be 125 seating capacity needed in order for conduit/mc cable to be required? My city Elec inspector are discussing this. But another Elec inspector neighboring city says only if the building is 3 stories tall, then it is required. Is this question a building code question instead of an NEC question? Thank you.

 

[petersonra]

seems to me a church is covered in article 518. 518.4 describes what wiring methods are allowed.

you might find the 3 story or 125 seat limit indirectly in 518.4(B).

 

[augie47]

agree with petersonra, the 100 makes it an assembly, Art 518, and 518.4 details the wiring methods.

 

[kwired]

If it is a pretty small church and has occupancy of less than100 art 518 wouldn't apply.

Note not only is NM cable prohibited in 518 applications but so is other non metallic wiring methods.

 

[fishin' electrician]

Can you can keep the wiring for these outside soffit lights from entering the assembly area?

I'd imagine in many cases you could, thereby negating the stricter 518 requirements.

518.2(B) Multiple Occupancies. Where an assembly occupancy forms a portion of a building containing other occupancies, Article 518 applies only to that portion of the building consid‐ ered an assembly occupancy. Occupancy of any room or space for assembly purposes by less than 100 persons in a building of other occupancy, and incidental to such other occupancy, shall be classified as part of the other occupancy and subject to the provisions applicable thereto.

 

[kwired]

Can you can keep the wiring for these outside soffit lights from entering the assembly area?

I'd imagine in many cases you could, thereby negating the stricter 518 requirements.

true. The entire building isn't necessarily an assembly area, just certain portions of it.

That said I've seen inspectors want at least1 hour finish between said areas to consider them separate enough. Normally not a problem with newer construction but some really old buildings out there that isn't always the case.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

From 2017 NEC:
location.
ARTICLE 518
Assembly Occupancies
518.1 Scope. Except for the assembly occupancies explicitly
covered by 520.1, this article covers all buildings or portions of
buildings or structures designed or intended for the gathering
together of 100 or more persons for such purposes as deliberation,
worship, entertainment, eating, drinking, amusement,
awaiting transportation, or similar purposes.

518.2 General Classification.
(A) Examples. Assembly occupancies shall include, but not be
limited to, the following:
Armories Exhibition halls
Assembly halls Gymnasiums
Auditoriums Mortuary chapels
Bowling lanes Multipurpose rooms
Club rooms Museums
Conference rooms Places of awaiting transportation
Courtrooms Places of religious worship
Dance halls Pool rooms
Dining and drinking Restaurants
facilities Skating rinks

(B) Multiple Occupancies. Where an assembly occupancy
forms a portion of a building containing other occupancies,
Article 518 applies only to that portion of the building considered
an assembly occupancy. Occupancy of any room or space
for assembly purposes by less than 100 persons in a building of
other occupancy, and incidental to such other occupancy, shall
be classified as part of the other occupancy and subject to the
provisions applicable thereto.

So is the place of worship a stand alone building/Structure or is is it part of a multiple occupancy Building. Like a Place of Worship in a strip mall.
I would think that alone would guide you to the answer.

2017 NEC:
518.4 Wiring Methods.
(A) General. The fixed wiring methods shall be metal raceways,
flexible metal raceways, nonmetallic raceways encased in
not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, Type MI, MC, or
AC cable. The wiring method shall itself qualify as an equipment
grounding conductor according to 250.118 or shall
contain an insulated equipment grounding conductor sized in
accordance with Table 250.122.

Usually there is a plaque require at the entrance of a building defining the occupancy limits. No plaque call the city or Fire Marshall. If under 100 and a stand alone building and no amendments I would say you're OK. Last note; Watch out for an historical district location.

One item to help would be look at existing wiring methods. No need to scab it up

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Though I should add.
2017 NEC:
518.4 Wiring Methods.
(B) Nonrated Construction. In addition to the wiring methods
of 518.4(A), nonmetallic-sheathed cable, Type AC cable,
electrical nonmetallic tubing, and rigid nonmetallic conduit
shall be permitted to be installed in those buildings or portions
thereof that are not required to be of fire-rated construction by
the applicable building code.

 

[Buck Parrish]

We have to add some soffit outside lights in a church. Indiana is still using 2008 NEC. Didn’t there use to be 125 seating capacity needed in order for conduit/mc cable to be required? My city Elec inspector are discussing this. But another Elec inspector neighboring city says only if the building is 3 stories tall, then it is required. Is this question a building code question instead of an NEC question? Thank you.

Just going from memory, in regard to the three stories the inspector mentioned. All buildings use to require a metallic wiring method if they were 4 stories or more. That went away some time ago. The inspector may have been remembering that rule. NEC 2002 334.10 I think was the change.

 

[kwired]

From 2017 NEC:
location.
ARTICLE 518
Assembly Occupancies
518.1 Scope. Except for the assembly occupancies explicitly
covered by 520.1, this article covers all buildings or portions of
buildings or structures designed or intended for the gathering
together of 100 or more persons for such purposes as deliberation,
worship, entertainment, eating, drinking, amusement,
awaiting transportation, or similar purposes.

518.2 General Classification.
(A) Examples. Assembly occupancies shall include, but not be
limited to, the following:
Armories Exhibition halls
Assembly halls Gymnasiums
Auditoriums Mortuary chapels
Bowling lanes Multipurpose rooms
Club rooms Museums
Conference rooms Places of awaiting transportation
Courtrooms Places of religious worship
Dance halls Pool rooms
Dining and drinking Restaurants
facilities Skating rinks

(B) Multiple Occupancies. Where an assembly occupancy
forms a portion of a building containing other occupancies,
Article 518 applies only to that portion of the building considered
an assembly occupancy. Occupancy of any room or space
for assembly purposes by less than 100 persons in a building of
other occupancy, and incidental to such other occupancy, shall
be classified as part of the other occupancy and subject to the
provisions applicable thereto.

So is the place of worship a stand alone building/Structure or is is it part of a multiple occupancy Building. Like a Place of Worship in a strip mall.
I would think that alone would guide you to the answer.

2017 NEC:
518.4 Wiring Methods.
(A) General. The fixed wiring methods shall be metal raceways,
flexible metal raceways, nonmetallic raceways encased in
not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, Type MI, MC, or
AC cable. The wiring method shall itself qualify as an equipment
grounding conductor according to 250.118 or shall
contain an insulated equipment grounding conductor sized in
accordance with Table 250.122.

Usually there is a plaque require at the entrance of a building defining the occupancy limits. No plaque call the city or Fire Marshall. If under 100 and a stand alone building and no amendments I would say you're OK. Last note; Watch out for an historical district location.

One item to help would be look at existing wiring methods. No need to scab it up

I was speaking with an inspector one time, well before 2017, probably was maybe when 1999 or even 2002 code was in effect here but I don't think much has changed since then either, on an upcoming new church project. This one had the obvious assembly area, which was more of a combination worship space as well as fellowship hall all in one, which also had a kitchen with serving window into that assembly area. Also had a hallway to separate areas with classsrooms, offices, etc. The discussion was about what wiring methods could be used where. He basically said those classrooms and offices were not over 100 occupants 518 didn't necessarily apply. The kitchen itself wasn't over 100 occupants, however it was open to the main assembly hall and therefore he would still count it as part of that space for art 518 purposes. If it would have had a 1 hour finish between it and the assembly space he would have exempted it from 518 requirements. Said kitchen maybe would have had 1 hour general construction between it and the main assembly space, but that serving line window kind of left a big hole in the finish rating.

Note 518.2 just gives examples of places that may likely qualify, does not mean they automatically are included nor does it mean something not mentioned is automatically exempted.

A small chapel say in a mall, hospital, Vegas hotel, etc. may not be over 100 occupancy and wouldn't automatically be subject to 518 rules just because it is a place of religious worship.

 

[Another C10]

You may find a code to accommodate your argument to the city but remember the city can require above and beyond
what the NEC code allows.

Another reason I'm not very fond of city Inspectors.

 

[kwired]

You may find a code to accommodate your argument to the city but remember the city can require above and beyond
what the NEC code allows.

Another reason I'm not very fond of city Inspectors.

And have little information to justify what they require being any kind of improvement to safety of life or property over what NEC may already have.

 

[Stevenfyeager]

Inspector (building commissioner) researched section 518, concludes I can use romex. It's all attic work above drywall. and all wood framing, he said if it had been metal framing, that would be different. ( 2008 NEC) He said no permit required. Thank you.

 

[kwired]

Inspector (building commissioner) researched section 518, concludes I can use romex. It's all attic work above drywall. and all wood framing, he said if it had been metal framing, that would be different. ( 2008 NEC) He said no permit required. Thank you.

His rejection if metal framing makes no sense.

The main reason for needing metallic wiring methods is the smoke producing characteristics of non metallic wiring methods.

The stupid thing about this requirement is they are afraid of people congregating in groups of 100 or more being overcome by the smoke should it happen yet is ok to wire our homes where we all sleep with smoke producing wiring methods. Guess that means it is ok to kill people off at just a few at a time while possibly sleeping but gather them in larger crowds where someone is likely to notice the fire soon enough they can all get out isn't acceptable?

 

[augie47]

I imagine his answer was a roundabout way of saying if it had been fire rated construction using metal studs the exception would not have applied.

 

[retirede]

His rejection if metal framing makes no sense.

The main reason for needing metallic wiring methods is the smoke producing characteristics of non metallic wiring methods.

The stupid thing about this requirement is they are afraid of people congregating in groups of 100 or more being overcome by the smoke should it happen yet is ok to wire our homes where we all sleep with smoke producing wiring methods. Guess that means it is ok to kill people off at just a few at a time while possibly sleeping but gather them in larger crowds where someone is likely to notice the fire soon enough they can all get out isn't acceptable?

The counter argument is: it’s more likely a family safely exits a home when their alarm goes off than getting 200+ panicked people out of a few exits of a large structure they may be unfamiliar with, as it’s filling with smoke.

I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I can see the point.

 

[kwired]

I imagine his answer was a roundabout way of saying if it had been fire rated construction using metal studs the exception would not have applied.

What exception?

There is 518.4(C) in 2008, probably still there in later editions as well, that allows non metallic wiring methods behind rated finishes of 15 minutes or more, but doesn't mention wood or metal framing members at all. My reply was about why his inspector though metal framing members wouldn't be allowable?

 

[augie47]

"Exception" was the wrong term. My thoughts were that with 518.4(B) allowing NM in non-fire rated construction the presence of metal studs can sometimes indicate the construction is fire rated. I know it's not that simple but the presence of metal studs causes me to take another look.

 

[kwired]

"Exception" was the wrong term. My thoughts were that with 518.4(B) allowing NM in non-fire rated construction the presence of metal studs can sometimes indicate the construction is fire rated. I know it's not that simple but the presence of metal studs causes me to take another look.

15 minute rating essentially means drywall for a covering and has nothing to do with framing method.

You can put 5/8 rock on both sides of a wall and I think the wall fire rating is still same whether or not it has wood or metal studs, I think.

 

[augie47]

Understand...
is not my intent to get into a "spitting" contest on fire rating.. I was simply replying to the inspector's reported comment on metal studs and stating that when I see metal studs I stop to evaluate the fire rating status of the job... perhaps that was what the inspector referenced.