Ground rods at pool panel location?

[ritelec]

From what I understand, If a panel is free standing outside at the pool equipment location, ground rods are not suggested or required.

I looked at an old Federal Pacific panel feeding a pool pump yesterday that needs replacing. It's a rusted exterior panel (fed with 30 amps) that looks like it was outside free standing by the filter then years later someone built a small shed around it to enclose the filter and have an area to store garden tools.

The panel is low sticking out of the floor located in the middle of the shed by the equipment as if there was no shed..

There are a couple of lights installed in the shed with a switch.

Question is, electrically what changed between having the panel free standing by some pool equipment outside and free standing by some pool equipment with four walls and a roof around it?

Why would four walls and a roof warrant adding ground rods?

Thank you.

 

[James L]

panel cannot be freestanding, can it?
It's mounted to something, I would imagine.

Whatever it's mounted to...was it constructed?
Then it's a structure - imho

I believe either indoors or outdoors, it would need ground rod

 

[Little Bill]

I've had this discussion with more than one inspector. All consider whatever is built/constructed to hold the panel to be a structure. A structure(separate from the house) requires a grounding system. Best I could get out of them was I only had to drive one rod!

 

[ritelec]

panel cannot be freestanding, can it?
It's mounted to something, I would imagine.

Whatever it's mounted to...was it constructed?
Then it's a structure - imho

I believe either indoors or outdoors, it would need ground rod

two 3/4" pipes are coming up with wood between them.
the panel is mounted to the wood

kinda like using 90 degree kindorf brackets to the ground and coming up vertically with kindorff, then connecting them horizontally, and hanging the panel on that. But instead pipe vertical wood horizontal, panel mounted on wood.

Free standing. Not secured in or to a wall.

from what I understand, no structure no ground rod

 

[ritelec]

I've had this discussion with more than one inspector. All consider whatever is built/constructed to hold the panel to be a structure. A structure(separate from the house) requires a grounding system. Best I could get out of them was I only had to drive one rod!

Interestingly, the structure isn't holding the panel. I'll probably just add the rod but wondering the purpose.. thank you

 

[Little Bill]

Interestingly, the structure isn't holding the panel. I'll probably just add the rod but wondering the purpose.. thank you

The pipes and wood ARE the structure!

 

[SSDriver]

The pipes and wood ARE the structure!

I disagree. A light pole or stadium lights are not considered a structure and does not require a ground rod. Why would two pipes be considered a structure.

 

[petersonra]

I disagree. A light pole or stadium lights are not considered a structure and does not require a ground rod. Why would two pipes be considered a structure.

Look at the latest definition of structure.

 

[ritelec]

Look at the latest definition of structure.

I’m looking at 2014.
“ that which is built or constructed”

250.32
Buildings or Structures ( with an s)

I would think if it was structure, wouldn’t building or constructing something ( a structure) to hold a panel in the main building also then have to have a ground rod ?

Just a thought

 

[Little Bill]

I’m looking at 2014.
“ that which is built or constructed”

250.32
Buildings or Structures ( with an s)

I would think if it was structure, wouldn’t building or constructing something ( a structure) to hold a panel in the main building also then have to have a ground rod ?

Just a thought

If it's in the same building as the main panel/service, then another ground rod isn't needed or required.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

They worked in the definition of structure in the 2017 code.

Structure.
That which is built or constructed, other than equipment. (CMP-1)

However it is still not 100% clear. The panel is equipment, but are the supports for the panel a structure? In my opinion a panel supported like described in this thread is not a structure, but only YOUR AHJ knows the answer for you.

 

[petersonra]

From what I understand, If a panel is free standing outside at the pool equipment location, ground rods are not suggested or required.

Does the code say this?

 

[infinity]

They worked in the definition of structure in the 2017 code.

However it is still not 100% clear. The panel is equipment, but are the supports for the panel a structure? In my opinion a panel supported like described in this thread is not a structure, but only YOUR AHJ knows the answer for you.

I agree, the NEC definition is terrible but a support for a piece of equipment is IMO not a structure. I guess that this is a violation because there is more than one supply to a structure.

 

[augie47]

Obviously it will be a local jurisdiction call.
Here, it would be considered a structure.

 

[LarryFine]

It seems to me that the panel, not necessarily the structure, is what warrants an electrode.

 

[James L]

It seems to me that the panel, not necessarily the structure, is what warrants an electrode.

I guess an interesting one would be if you had a panel mounted on a tree. It's not a structure because it's not something anyone built.

 

[infinity]

I guess an interesting one would be if you had a panel mounted on a tree. It's not a structure because it's not something anyone built.

I've mentioned that before as well. I'd like to see an inspector argue that a tree is a structure.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

I really believe at some point common sense should kick in.
I do the like the change allowing an auxiliary rod if you want to.
In the case of the pool panel feeding equipment and proper bonding. I would opt not to if a four wire and GFCI protection is provided in the feeder.