705.12(B)(2)(3)(c) question

electro7

Senior Member
Location
Northern CA, US
Occupation
Electrician, Solar and Electrical Contractor
Does this comply with the code section listed in the subject title if the label is added? (See the attached sketch)

I don't see how the busbar would ever see more than 200As.
9b520f93b9729b0cea9d84ad3f79d44a.jpg


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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Does this comply with the code section listed in the subject title if the label is added? (See the attached sketch)

I don't see how the busbar would ever see more than 200As.
9b520f93b9729b0cea9d84ad3f79d44a.jpg


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Is that a 200A panel with a 200A main breaker and a feedthrough lug kit on the busbars? If so, all the breakers on your lug kit as well as those in the panel must be counted and the total of the ratings must be less than 200A.
 
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jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Does this comply with the code section listed in the subject title if the label is added? (See the attached sketch)

I don't see how the busbar would ever see more than 200As.
9b520f93b9729b0cea9d84ad3f79d44a.jpg


Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk
That's a 2017 NEC reference to the 'sum of all breakers rule"? If I recall correctly feed through lugs were something of a loophole to this rule before the 2020 NEC.

In my opinion the installation is safe, and probably compliant, but under the 2020 NEC it could be a confusing conversation with a persnickety AHJ.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
I know you know we have other rules besides the 120% rule.
His reference is to the sum of all breakers rule in the 2017 NEC. You can't get around it by putting some of the breakers on feedthrough lugs. If he were to use a breaker rather than the lugs he would be limited to an 80A breaker.
 

electro7

Senior Member
Location
Northern CA, US
Occupation
Electrician, Solar and Electrical Contractor
Yes it's a 200A main service panel with a 200A main breaker and 200A rated busbar.

We added the Lug kit to move back up loads to the back up loads panel. The solar is also downstream from the Lug kit.

Not sure why I would need to add up all of the loads downstream of the Lug kit if that is where the solar is tied in as well.

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ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Yes it's a 200A main service panel with a 200A main breaker and 200A rated busbar.

We added the Lug kit to move back up loads to the back up loads panel. The solar is also downstream from the Lug kit.

Not sure why I would need to add up all of the loads downstream of the Lug kit if that is where the solar is tied in as well.

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The breakers connected to the lug kit are thereby connected to the busbar of the panel and must be considered in the sum of all breakers rule. That's my opinion, of course.

You could, however, install an 80A breaker in the MDP instead of a lug kit and connect it to a MLO subpanel with a busbar rated equal to or greater than the sum of those breakers, and qualify both panel busses under the sum of all breakers rule. That's the way I would do it.
 
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jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
The breakers connected to the lug kit are thereby connected to the busbar of the panel and must be considered in the sum of all breakers rule. That's my opinion, of course.

...

Yeah, that really is just an opinion as the letter of the code does not address it directly.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
It would be my opinion that 705.12(B)(2)(3)(b) applies to this installation.
That doesn't address the question.
A panelboard can comply with (a),(b) or (c), and each is irrelevant as to whether another is compliant. The installation is not compliant with (b), or (a). The question is whether it complies with (c). In the 2017 NEC (c) refers only to "overcurrent devices on panelboards" and doesn't explicitly address feed through lugs. It's a genuine loophole, but the loophole doesn't result in an unsafe installation when the source(s) are only connected to the feed through lugs.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
That doesn't address the question.
A panelboard can comply with (a),(b) or (c), and each is irrelevant as to whether another is compliant. The installation is not compliant with (b), or (a). The question is whether it complies with (c). In the 2017 NEC (c) refers only to "overcurrent devices on panelboards" and doesn't explicitly address feed through lugs. It's a genuine loophole, but the loophole doesn't result in an unsafe installation when the source(s) are only connected to the feed through lugs.
Since (c) does not apply based on the code language, you cannot even look at (c) for this installation.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
... the loophole doesn't result in an unsafe installation when the source(s) are only connected to the feed through lugs.
But it could. What's to prevent someone exploiting this loophole from installing 400A of PV connected to the lugs? IMO, 705.12(B)(2)(3)(b) applies because anything connected to the lugs is connected to the bus. But, whatever; it's not my problem, so do whatever you think you can get away with. I certainly would not put my PE seal on it.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
But it could.
With 72A output? How?

What's to prevent someone exploiting this loophole from installing 400A of PV connected to the lugs?
In the 2017 NEC, the definition of an inverter output circuit would require all the conductors to the service, including the busbar, to be rated 400A. What's to prevent any installation from being modified to be no longer compliant? The 90A of output (after 125% factor) is compliant IMO.

IMO, 705.12(B)(2)(3)(b) applies because anything connected to the lugs is connected to the bus.
It could be compliant with both (b) and (c). Or neither. (b) doesn't affect whether the installation is compliant with (c). It's not either/or.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
With 72A output? How?


In the 2017 NEC, the definition of an inverter output circuit would require all the conductors to the service, including the busbar, to be rated 400A. What's to prevent any installation from being modified to be no longer compliant? The 90A of output (after 125% factor) is compliant IMO.


It could be compliant with both (b) and (c). Or neither. (b) doesn't affect whether the installation is compliant with (c). It's not either/or.
I am aware of what the code says and doesn't say. As you said it's a loophole, and I don't do loopholes; he has 210A of breaker ratings connected to that 200A bus just as surely as if that 90A OCPD were landed directly on the bus. I would not stamp it as NEC compliant unless his AHJ does not consider the grid battery sense breaker to be either a source or a load.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
You'll have to explain how you think it doesn't apply. I disagree.
Because, as you pointed out, breakers connected on the load side of the feed through connection are not "overcurrent devices on panelboards," If you don't have that condition, (c) does not apply. Maybe it should, but the language in the 2017 does not permit it.
 

Elect117

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Engineer E.E. P.E.
So if the grid sense was moved to the shop panel he is okay? That is if there is space on that shop panel for it.

I have never used a battery+solar but I imagine the grid sense is the control circuitry for the equipment? Could you put that on a 15A or on an outlet?
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Because, as you pointed out, breakers connected on the load side of the feed through connection are not "overcurrent devices on panelboards," If you don't have that condition, (c) does not apply. Maybe it should, but the language in the 2017 does not permit it.
Yes, the overcurrent devices on the load side of the feed through connection aren't on the panelboard, so therefore they don't need to be summed. I don't see how that disqualifies (c) from applying the situation. There is still 120A of breakers that is on the panelboard needs to be summed. But if that were zero it would still comply with (c). Can't follow you at all here.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
So if the grid sense was moved to the shop panel he is okay? That is if there is space on that shop panel for it.

I have never used a battery+solar but I imagine the grid sense is the control circuitry for the equipment? Could you put that on a 15A or on an outlet?

What is the grid sense for, exactly? Does the solar/battery system have a backup function? Does it really need a 20A breaker or would 10A suffice? Are there loads connected downstream and what is the load calc for them?

Supposing that you could connect the grid sense to the shop panel and the solar/battery (including any downstream loads) through a 90 or 100A breaker, then the design would unambiguously comply. We would no longer have to discuss the confusion caused by the feed through lugs.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Yes, the overcurrent devices on the load side of the feed through connection aren't on the panelboard, so therefore they don't need to be summed. I don't see how that disqualifies (c) from applying the situation. There is still 120A of breakers that is on the panelboard needs to be summed. But if that were zero it would still comply with (c). Can't follow you at all here.
What is the difference, electrically speaking, between a 90A breaker in a panel and 90A of OCP on the other end of a conductor set connected to feedthrough lugs on that same panel? There is none that I can see; the NEC's silence on this point is, as you say, a loophole. If that battery sensor, whatever it is, were on a 10A instead of a 20A breaker, I'd stamp it.
 
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