Bare neutral for 3 wire range and clothes dryers.

N

nizak

Senior Member
Terminating 2 existing 3 wire NM cables in a newly installed residential sub panel. One for range one for clothes dryer.
I would say they should terminate on the neutral bar and not the equipment ground bar.
Is that correct.

Thanks
 
The original install was 60 years ago. At that time this was the main panel It was a . (12) circuit QO panel with all spaces except 2 having tandem breakers and some of the tandems were doubled.

Now I’m upgrading to a 30 space . Panel needs to be 4 wire since I’m adding the Emergency Disconnect.
 
nizak said:
Terminating 2 existing 3 wire NM cables in a newly installed residential sub panel. One for range one for clothes dryer.
I would say they should terminate on the neutral bar and not the equipment ground bar.
Is that correct.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Are you sure it is NM cable and not SE cable/conductors?
As for the EM disconnect, you can label it "emergency disconnect, not service" and not have to run a 4-wire.
 
We never use the 'em-disconnect', we run a 4-wire for the sub-panel and also those old circuits with any service upgrade, ever since we had rash of issues with them, he explains to the customer its a safety issue.
Older NM that was done correctly has a 3 insulated wires red / black / white and no bare, and for that you can run 10 green externally and ground that way.
Its technically not code in MA though.
 
nizak said:
Terminating 2 existing 3 wire NM cables in a newly installed residential sub panel. One for range one for clothes dryer.
I would say they should terminate on the neutral bar and not the equipment ground bar.
Is that correct.

Thanks
Click to expand...
The 3 wire range and dryer circuits were only allowed to the main panel, not a sub-panel. If it's now a sub-panel they need to be upgraded to 4 wire.
 
robertd said:
The 3 wire range and dryer circuits were only allowed to the main panel, not a sub-panel. If it's now a sub-panel they need to be upgraded to 4 wire.
Click to expand...
They were allowed if the grounded conductor was insulated. The grounding conductor in NM cable was never permitted to be used as a grounded conductor no matter where the circuit originated.
 
Birken Vogt said:
It can remain 3 wire after the Em Disco
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Sounds like after 2026 NEC there must be a service disconnect on outside and run to the inside is always going to be considered a feeder. Basically no more "emergency disconnect-not service equipment".

I still not sure if I agree with the need for this outside disconnect, but if they going to make us have it, that sounds simpler in the long run. I still think they should have ways of dealing with replacing old indoor service equipment and still allow the "emergency disconnect - not service equipment" for those situations.
 
If you use NM, you have to use 3 wire + ground, so it has an insulated neutral. It was never allowed to use 2 wire + ground NM as far as I know although I am sure it was done. Two wire SE cable with a bare is allowed if the source of the circuit is the main panel.
 
nizak said:
I stand corrected. The range is SE cable.
The dryer is NM cable.
Marked on the sheath as such.
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If the NM cable has an insulated neutral than it's a 4 wire circurt and it's fine. If it's 10/2 or 8/2 w/ground, so two insulated hots and a bare ground, then it never met code.
Edit: Did they ever make NM cable with two hots a neutral and no ground? That would be OK as a three wire circuit for a dryer. I don't recall ever seeing that. That would be 10/3 or 8/3 without ground.
 
robertd said:
If the NM cable has an insulated neutral than it's a 4 wire circurt and it's fine. If it's 10/2 or 8/2 w/ground, so two insulated hots and a bare ground, then it never met code.
Edit: Did they ever make NM cable with two hots a neutral and no ground? That would be OK as a three wire circuit for a dryer. I don't recall ever seeing that. That would be 10/3 or 8/3 without ground.
Click to expand...
10-3, 8-3 and 6-3 (no ground) was very common before NEC started requiring separate EGC for all (new circuit) ranges and dryers.

Seen a fair amount of 12-3 no ground that was installed in 60's 70's maybe early 80's even. Mostly for three way switch circuits. Back then an EGC wasn't required at switch locations if not using a metallic wall plate which if you had one would have needed to be connected to an EGC.
 
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