Bare neutral for 3 wire range and clothes dryers.
- Thread starter nizak
- Start date
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
Ah, new 4 wire cables? I don't think that was ever allowed in a sub.
(Neutral bar. Tape it up so none of the bare comes on contact with the enclosure.)
(Neutral bar. Tape it up so none of the bare comes on contact with the enclosure.)
The original install was 60 years ago. At that time this was the main panel It was a . (12) circuit QO panel with all spaces except 2 having tandem breakers and some of the tandems were doubled.
Now I’m upgrading to a 30 space . Panel needs to be 4 wire since I’m adding the Emergency Disconnect.
Now I’m upgrading to a 30 space . Panel needs to be 4 wire since I’m adding the Emergency Disconnect.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
It's a neutral, not an EGC. Insulate it (white) and connect it as a neutral.
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pipe_bender
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston
- Occupation
- Electrician
Bare neutral was never allowed for NM, existing 3-wire range / dryer with 10/2 or 8/2 NM is problematic on sub-panel.
Here I'd have to rewire those circuits.
Here I'd have to rewire those circuits.
- Location
- Tennessee NEC:2017
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrician
Are you sure it is NM cable and not SE cable/conductors?
As for the EM disconnect, you can label it "emergency disconnect, not service" and not have to run a 4-wire.
pipe_bender
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston
- Occupation
- Electrician
We never use the 'em-disconnect', we run a 4-wire for the sub-panel and also those old circuits with any service upgrade, ever since we had rash of issues with them, he explains to the customer its a safety issue.
Older NM that was done correctly has a 3 insulated wires red / black / white and no bare, and for that you can run 10 green externally and ground that way.
Its technically not code in MA though.
Older NM that was done correctly has a 3 insulated wires red / black / white and no bare, and for that you can run 10 green externally and ground that way.
Its technically not code in MA though.
The 3 wire range and dryer circuits were only allowed to the main panel, not a sub-panel. If it's now a sub-panel they need to be upgraded to 4 wire.
curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
They were allowed if the grounded conductor was insulated. The grounding conductor in NM cable was never permitted to be used as a grounded conductor no matter where the circuit originated.
I stand corrected. The range is SE cable.
The dryer is NM cable.
Marked on the sheath as such.
Birken Vogt
Senior Member
- Location
- Grass Valley, Ca
It can remain 3 wire after the Em Disco
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Sounds like after 2026 NEC there must be a service disconnect on outside and run to the inside is always going to be considered a feeder. Basically no more "emergency disconnect-not service equipment".
I still not sure if I agree with the need for this outside disconnect, but if they going to make us have it, that sounds simpler in the long run. I still think they should have ways of dealing with replacing old indoor service equipment and still allow the "emergency disconnect - not service equipment" for those situations.
Eddie702
Licensed Electrician
- Location
- Western Massachusetts
- Occupation
- Electrician
If you use NM, you have to use 3 wire + ground, so it has an insulated neutral. It was never allowed to use 2 wire + ground NM as far as I know although I am sure it was done. Two wire SE cable with a bare is allowed if the source of the circuit is the main panel.