14/50 outlet for EV

retirede said:
How can you energize both buses in a 120V-only panel without the bus to bus voltage being zero?
Click to expand...
I see you’re laughing at me for some reason. The premise of your question doesn’t make any sense considering the fact that you cannot show any residential 120/240 V panel with instructions that allow you to somehow connect the two buses together on the same leg.

You want me to come up with scenarios of what is disastrous. I can do that, but I don’t see the point. I could come up with a scenario in which a person connects a 240 V ejector pump without properly testing the power, which subsequently causes a massive flood, in the same vein as someone connecting an RV without properly testing the power.

But this is a code forum, and that’s what I was looking for a discussion about.
 
JohnHess said:
I see you’re laughing at me for some reason. The premise of your question doesn’t make any sense considering the fact that you cannot show any residential 120/240 V panel with instructions that allow you to somehow connect the two buses together on the same leg.

You want me to come up with scenarios of what is disastrous. I can do that, but I don’t see the point. I could come up with a scenario in which a person connects a 240 V ejector pump without properly testing the power, which subsequently causes a massive flood, in the same vein as someone connecting an RV without properly testing the power.

But this is a code forum, and that’s what I was looking for a discussion about.
Click to expand...
Your original premise I responded to was simply conflating technically a 120V-only panel without a 14-50R without a neutral. To reference to any code sections or violations. When you lost that argument, you moved the goalposts - that’s was I found amusing. Who would wire up a pump and walk away not knowing it would function properly? I’m done.
 
retirede said:
Your original premise I responded to was simply conflating technically a 120V-only panel without a 14-50R without a neutral. To reference to any code sections or violations. When you lost that argument, you moved the goalposts - that’s was I found amusing. Who would wire up a pump and walk away not knowing it would function properly? I’m done.
Click to expand...
I don’t know who would wire up a pump and walk away, you’re the one who is asking me to pull scenarios out of thin air. I did that to appease you so we could move on.

You said that I lost an argument, can you point that out? What argument was I having and where did I lose it? Who did I lose it too?

It seems like you completely misunderstood the entire discussion. When I said the results of wiring a panel for 120 V could be disastrous in some people’s opinion, I never said because it would provide voltage. I gave the example that it could be disastrous by not providing voltage. For some reason you didn’t like this, and decided that you’re going to say that I lost the argument. But I was trying not to engage in that part of the argument since it has nothing to do with what I was speaking about. For the third time I will explain to you that making up scenarios based on your opinion of what is disastrous has nothing to do with this discussion. This discussion is about code.

If we have to follow the instructions of a receptacle that says it requires 120/240 V, don’t we also have to follow the instructions of a load center that also says it has to be 120/240 V?

If we have to follow the instructions of a receptacle that says you have to land a neutral on the neutral terminal, then don’t we also have to follow the instructions of a load center that says we have to install a different leg on each bus in order to ensure 240 V for the two pole breakers it tells us to install?

Please stop with the condescending smiles and the insulting words telling me that I lost an argument to you and how you’re leaving. Let’s just discuss code here, thank you
 
LarryFine said:
In my opinion, it would be dangerous and irresponsible to not wire the neutral terminal of a receptacle.
Click to expand...
I agree but what code section would actually require it? The instructions for the receptacle is weak argument. The instructions also say to connect the EGC to the green screw but that's not required either in many instances.
 
zbang said:
OTOH, I think it would be a violation as that doesn't wire the device per the instructions, and while an EV might not need the neutral, that would be a problem if someone plugged an recreational vehicle into it.

(The instruction sheet for a Leviton receptacle clearly shows a neutral on the wiring diagram - https://leviton.com/content/dam/lev...instruction_sheet/Instruction-Sheet_1450R.pdf.)
Click to expand...
EVs have been around for a while. Why do we not have receptacles for EVs that do not have the neutral? Where there is a need there should be a solution?
An interem solution may be to label the receptacle "FOR EV USE ONLY!"
 
infinity said:
I agree but what code section would actually require it?
Click to expand...
In my opinion, it's one of those "We don't need a code for the incredibly obvious" kind of things.

The receptacle *says* "This is the neutral slot." Who would think it's okay to not wire it as such?
 
Greg1707 said:
EVs have been around for a while. Why do we not have receptacles for EVs that do not have the neutral? Where there is a need there should be a solution?
An interem solution may be to label the receptacle "FOR EV USE ONLY!"
Click to expand...
There is a receptacle for that, a 6-50. The only reason why the 14-50 is so popular is because EV charger manufacturers wanted to use a plug that would match the most existing receptacles, which is definitely the 14-50. And it just stuck. You can buy many chargers with a 6-50 plug, but they are harder to find and often more expensive due to availability.
 
The ratings on devices are maximums, alone they do not tell you what voltages are actually avaible from the pins. Does anyone doubt that a 120/240V device can be wired to a 120/208V circuit?

The NEC requires wiring device configurations to be wired/used the same through out a building, but it stops short of saying which configurations must be actually be used and where.

If you want a piece of equipment always plugged into a specific location why can't you use a 3-phase plug and receptacle even though it is a single phase circuit, or maybe a 30A plug and receptacle even though the circuit is only protected at 15A?

As long as you don't swap hots and non-hots, I don't see a problem. Yeah some type of labeling would be important.
 
jim dungar said:
The ratings on devices are maximums, alone they do not tell you what voltages are actually avaible from the pins. Does anyone doubt that a 120/240V device can be wired to a 120/208V circuit?
Click to expand...

There actually aren't any 120/240V devices. The NEMA receptacles and plugs are rated at 125/250V maximum and are suitable for use on circuits below those voltages.
 
There is a popular dealership here running ad's for free charger installations, the electricians that are doing them are running 6/2 NM, they wired many 14-50's here without a neutral, I had a thread on it a while back.
I advised a customer to contact them and have it corrected to a 6-50, the EC said its code and nothing to correct.
 
Greg1707 said:
EVs have been around for a while. Why do we not have receptacles for EVs that do not have the neutral? Where there is a need there should be a solution?
An interem solution may be to label the receptacle "FOR EV USE ONLY!"
Click to expand...
They do make charge controllers that do not use a neutral, but the salesperson and the internet tells the users they need that configuration so they can plug into a household range receptacle or 50 amp rv pedestal. The last RV campground I was at
Prohibited EV’s from being plugged in at their sites.
 
pipe_bender said:
I advised a customer to contact them and have it corrected to a 6-50, the EC said its code and nothing to correct.
Click to expand...
Have your customer let the EC know they'll be having the city inspector through to double-check their un-permitted work ;) I'm sure that missing neutral will show up REAALLLLL quick :D
 
JohnHess said:
There is a receptacle for that, a 6-50. The only reason why the 14-50 is so popular is because EV charger manufacturers wanted to use a plug that would match the most existing receptacles, which is definitely the 14-50. And it just stuck. You can buy many chargers with a 6-50 plug, but they are harder to find and often more expensive due to availability.
Click to expand...
Here is how I look at it. Also having turned a 120/240 panel in a 120 only panel now and again.

The 14-50 receptacle has a neutral. Any person using the receptacle assumes the neutral is there and, presumably, working. Now, the one person who wired it or who had it wired may know it's not, but it isn't acceptable that any random person cannot assume this receptacle is what it appears to be.

The 120/240 panel that has been wired as 120 only is a different animal. Anyone entering that panel to add something has to remove the cover. At that point they'd see there is only one main lug wired. That "anyone" should be an electrician. Just as you experienced when you thought you were going to use a sub-panel for a 240 circuit, only to find otherwise, that didn't get confused becuase you knew what you were doing. It never got the the point where a receptacle was wired that said it was one thing, but really wasn't.
 
tthh said:
Here is how I look at it. Also having turned a 120/240 panel in a 120 only panel now and again.

The 14-50 receptacle has a neutral. Any person using the receptacle assumes the neutral is there and, presumably, working. Now, the one person who wired it or who had it wired may know it's not, but it isn't acceptable that any random person cannot assume this receptacle is what it appears to be.

The 120/240 panel that has been wired as 120 only is a different animal. Anyone entering that panel to add something has to remove the cover. At that point they'd see there is only one main lug wired. That "anyone" should be an electrician. Just as you experienced when you thought you were going to use a sub-panel for a 240 circuit, only to find otherwise, that didn't get confused becuase you knew what you were doing. It never got the the point where a receptacle was wired that said it was one thing, but really wasn't.
Click to expand...
I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying. I was only speaking about code. If people think that code requires a 14-50 receptacle have a neutral wired to it because the neutral terminal exists and the instructions say to land a neutral on the terminal, and also because it’s labeled 120/240 V… then why wouldn’t that same set of code requirements apply to a 120/240 V load center with instructions saying to land a neutral on the terminal and two different legs on the buses and use two pole breakers to make 240 V?

I’m only asking about code. We could all rationalize why code articles are good or bad but we still have to follow it. I’m not looking to do either of these installations myself, just a better understanding of the code.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top