Attached - 3 wire feed is being done to avoid upgrade of 3 wire Range and Dryer which cannot originate in a subpanel
2020 NEC : GEC and bonding screw with “emergency disconnect, service equipment”
- Thread starter B677
- Start date
Deltaforce
Member
- Location
- India
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
B677
Please show any calculations your install complaint nec 250.6
overcome all objections
Please show any calculations your install complaint nec 250.6
overcome all objections
250.6 is not relevant, any currents on the Utility side of the Service Equipment is not under the NEC.
Just to be clear everything else aside 250.140 does allow existing range and dryer receptacles to be fed from a sub panel. If its SE cable you apply white tape and land it on the neutral bar.
In the 2023 code they clarified this by adding 240.140(B)(5).
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
Everything on the utility side of the service connect is bonded to the neutral, always, EM disconnect or not. I could have 37 metal pull boxes and every single one would be bonded to the neutral.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
Whether there is an Em disconnect or not has nothing to do with it. A gec May land anywhere from the service disconnect to the service point. So yes you are free to land a GEC in an EM disconnect neutral bus
mtnelect
HVAC & Electrical Contractor
- Location
- Southern California
- Occupation
- Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
This is where it all started !
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
I wouldn't assume anything. As electro stated the NEC allows a GEC to terminate at any point from the service disconnect to the service point. Since your EM disconnect is between those two points the GEC can terminate there just as shown in the sketch.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
There is no separate "ground" for the neutral to be in parallel with. Everything is bonded solely by and to the neutral.
The neutral conductor and any metallic enclosures, raceways, meter bases, etc., are all considered to be the neutral.
Only after the main service OCPD is there a separate EGC system. GECs connect directly to the neutral, not the EGC.
Deltaforce
Member
- Location
- India
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
But it is
See #24 #27 #31. On one hand ng bond in service panel in addition 'em disconnect not service equipment' ok because service conductors to service panel
On other hand feeder
conductors from' em disconnect, service disconnect ' to service panel violate, ng bond presence.
So by manipulating labelling only,
non complaint install made to code complaint install
I hate to sound rude but I don't know what you're saying. The Neutral can be bonded to Earth (ground) as many times as you want before the service equipment. In the service equipment you will install a Main Bonding Jumper, after that they will separate.
Its a discussion about the mis-application of all of 230.85
In order to use condition 230.85 (A)(3) A "meter main" as the OP stated he is using has to have a marking that no manufacturer I am aware of offers:
"suitable for use as service equipment"
all "meter mains" I see at the supply house and big box stores are marked
"suitable ONLY for use as service equipment".
230.66 requires service equipment to be listed relabeling voids the listing.
The OP has a meter main:
In addition there is still the requirement in 230.70(A)(1) often installers mistakenly think a "meter / main" labeled EM disconnect satisfies this section, thats why i call them 3-wire feeders.
The OP states he has
As soon as this conduit is no longer outside the structure per 230.6 230.70(A)(1) applies and a 'service disconnect' is required nearest the point of entrance if that 20' is meets 230.6 then its fine, but a EM disconnect cannot take the place of a service disconnect in that section.
Where did he state that?
It's not what he shows in post #61
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Where did meter mains enter the equation in this installation?
Correct if the EM disconnect is also the service disconnect then the conductors after that are feeder conductors and the equipment where the feeder terminates cannot have the neutral bonded. Is that even applicable in this installation?
Correct, In my case there is a service rated disconnect used strictly as an emergency disconnect and it's right under a meter enclosure. There is no meter main or meter main combo in this case.
No Meter main in the equation just a meter enclosure and disconnect inclosure with main breaker in it.
Regarding 230.6(1) - From the bottom of the disconnect I have 1.5" pvc going down under the slab then pop back up in the Garage to the main service panel. So these conductors AFAIK are considered outside of the structure
I don't have a meter main but it's interesting for you to point this out - All the meter mains I have seen are ONLY suitable for service equipment. I believe because you can only have a subpanel downstream (all these meter main combos are factory bonded N-G)
The main Breaker service panel in the garage is fed by 3/0 L1/L2 and 2/0 N from the "Emergency Disconnect, Not service equipment". All conduit is PVC and the MBJ is in the garage panel. Everything metal upstream from the service panel; in this case the metal enclosure of the service disconnect and meter enclosure is bonded to Service Neutral via SSBJ. Well because that is the only way to bond upstream of the MBJ.
I thank you for your input, I am trying to improve my understanding as when an inspector calls me they basically tell me what to do and I not very often can cite code while I'm in the middle of another job.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Think of everything ahead of the main service disconnect as lumps in the service cable, such as meters, etc.
Deltaforce
Member
- Location
- India
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
Not applicable in this application because label Emergency disconnect not service equipment only?