GFCI for appliances dilemma

[nietzj]

422.5 (A) tells me I need to provide GFCI protection for certain appliances which are listed 1-7. I thought by hard wiring the appliance I wouldn't need to worry about any receptacle requirements of 210.52 (B) This is not a dwelling. Of the equipment listed in 422.5 (A) the closest item listed is # 7 dishwasher which does require GFCI class (A) protection of the branch circuit. (I'm connecting a 3 phase 20 amp oven which also has gas and water connections so it's similar to a dishwasher.) Since the code does not list my oven as needing GFCI protection can the AHJ simply say it's similar enough so yes you need GFCI? The bigger issue is if I install a GFCI Class (A) breaker it's designed to trip at 4-6ma. This appliance has more like 45-ma so it instantly trips the breaker so it will not work. Seems like a guy could argue he's following the code and the AHJ can say I consider this as a dishwasher.... is there an answer?

 

[infinity]

Since the code does not list my oven as needing GFCI protection can the AHJ simply say it's similar enough so yes you need GFCI?

No. Specific appliances that require GFCI protection are listed in the NEC. There is no requirement to provide GFCI protection because someone may think that they're similar. An oven and a dishwasher are not similar and even if they were they are two different appliances.

 

[nietzj]

Just play the devils advocate.

"Is it reasonable for a code making panel to list every single appliance known? I think one could assume they are similar enough and therefore require GFCI"

BTW I don't like the language in 422.5, very vague for both installer and AHJ.

 

[Joethemechanic]

Are we talking about something like this, and the electrical is only for the conveyor, controls, and draft blower?

 

[Elect117]

In nonresidential, the presence of an oven can make a kitchen, and then GFCI for all receptacles in that room (or area depending on AHJ's interpretations). This may or may not include the oven if it is not hardwired. (210.8(B))

If the equipment washes dishes than I would call it a dishwasher.

 

[infinity]

Just play the devils advocate.

"Is it reasonable for a code making panel to list every single appliance known? I think one could assume they are similar enough and therefore require GFCI"

Yes it is either listed or isn't. No one gets to decide what they think is a similar appliance. If the NEC wanted similar appliances GFCI protected the code would actually say "similar appliances" which it presently does not.

 

[Acker550]

This is the item in question file:///C:/Users/acker550/Downloads/Rational%20Model%20No%20ICP-20%20Full%20NG%20208-240V%201PH%20(1).pdf
Because it does have water and gas to it, we really cannot determine what it would specifically fall under.

 

[infinity]

This is the item in question file:///C:/Users/acker550/Downloads/Rational%20Model%20No%20ICP-20%20Full%20NG%20208-240V%201PH%20(1).pdf
Because it does have water and gas to it, we really cannot determine what it would specifically fall under.

Your link didn't work.

 

[Acker550]

Sorry about the link not working. Here is the correct link. https://www.rational-online.com/en_us/icombi-pro/models/result/?products=21
This one should work.

 

[infinity]

This one should work

It says that it's an oven.

 

[Acker550]

It says that it's an oven.

With a water connection

 

[infinity]

With a water connection

How does a water connection change the fact that it's still a listed oven? My refrigerator has a water line connected to it but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a refrigerator.

 

[nietzj]

422.5 (A) instead of trying to list every known appliance at the time of this code cycle maybe the code panel should of said something like appliances requiring more than one utility, electric + water/gas/steam require GFCI class (A) protection. Otherwise we just have to assume they knew in advance an appliance that needs electric, water and gas connections is safe to install using a standard breaker.

 

[infinity]

422.5 (A) instead of trying to list every known appliance at the time of this code cycle maybe the code panel should of said something like appliances requiring more than one utility, electric + water/gas/steam require GFCI class (A) protection. Otherwise we just have to assume they knew in advance an appliance that needs electric, water and gas connections is safe to install using a standard breaker.

That would work but to the point of this thread presently no wording like that exists in the NEC. Therefore we can only enforce what's written.

 

[nietzj]

How does a water connection change the fact that it's still a listed oven? My refrigerator has a water line connected to it but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a refrigerator.

I think most would agree having additional utilities can pose a greater risk

 

[nietzj]

That would work but to the point of this thread presently no wording like that exists in the NEC. Therefore we can only enforce what's written.

I don’t disagree agree but I also don’t think it’s a stretch to find plenty of AHJ’s that could interpret this differently. Like I first mentioned, I don’t think there’s a clear answer.

 

[infinity]

I don’t disagree agree but I also don’t think it’s a stretch to find plenty of AHJ’s that could interpret this differently. Like I first mentioned, I don’t think there’s a clear answer.

I could see an ill informed inspector trying to interpret it differently but the NEC is perfectly clear on this. There are specific hardwired appliances that require GFCI protection and they're listed in the NEC. Until they introduce some wording into the NEC that says that similar appliances are also required to have GFCI protection that is simply not enforceable.

 

[Elect117]

Not to mention, the products power requirements make it not fit into either 210.8(B) or 422.5.

120V to ground and 60A or less for 422.5

For 210.8(B) it is 3PH, 150V to ground and 100A and less. This is 200A 3PH.

kW is 67.9.

That is 189A 3ph 208V. Well over both requirements.

 

[brycenesbitt]

That is 189A 3ph 208V. Well over both requirements.

And there's no way that a 5mA GFCI will hold with that power load, as the OP found.

 

[hbiss]

(I'm connecting a 3 phase 20 amp oven

Where did you get 20A 3 ph from unless you posted a link to a different product. Rational makes lots of different combi ovens, some even used in homes.

-Hal