Commercial kitchen GFCI protection

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PbMXer_218

Member
Location
Largo, Florida
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Licensed Electrician EC
Hello!

I am finishing a commercial project in Florida, a large grocery store. There is a 3 phase, 20 amp 208 v GFCI protected (breaker) circuit feeding a mixer. The mixer is a cord and plug connection. The electrical coordinator is claiming the mixer has some sort of problem with Square D QOB breakers and they have problems with it tripping the breakers at other store locations with Square D gear but not with other brands of gear for example Siemens. I have not witnessed this personally. We explained, removing the code compliant breaker and installing a non GFCI breaker was not something we were willing to do for safety reasons and the code compliance issue. Now he is asking for us to still remove the GFCI breaker and install a non GFCI breaker, install a 3 pole disconnect adjacent to the mixer, and hard wire the mixer to the disconnect. My question here is, does this method (hard wired to a disconnect) alleviate the GFCI requirement? I have read 210.8(b) (2023) and it does not clearly state this. At least I am not comprehending it in this way. In my opinion, I still believe it is still required to be GFCI protected. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks
 
If the electrical coordinator is saying Siemens GFCI breakers will work, you could put one in a smaller enclosure like at the link below instead of the disconnect.

Siemens Circuit Breaker Enclosure E0303ML3100S | Siemens - Warshauer Electric Supply

Circuit Breaker Enclosure; Type Breaker; Breaker Type 2/3-Pole QP/QPH/HQP; Breaker/Switch Current Rating 100 Ampere; Size 7-3/8 Inch W x 4-5/16 Inch D x 17-1/8 Inch H; Enclosure NEMA 1; Mounting Surface; Approval UL; Voltage Rating 240 VAC 3-Phase 3-Wire, 120/208 VAC 3-Phase 4-Wire
www.shopsiemensdirect.com www.shopsiemensdirect.com
 
synchro said:
If the electrical coordinator is saying Siemens GFCI breakers will work, you could put one in a smaller enclosure like at the link below instead of the disconnect.

Siemens Circuit Breaker Enclosure E0303ML3100S | Siemens - Warshauer Electric Supply

Circuit Breaker Enclosure; Type Breaker; Breaker Type 2/3-Pole QP/QPH/HQP; Breaker/Switch Current Rating 100 Ampere; Size 7-3/8 Inch W x 4-5/16 Inch D x 17-1/8 Inch H; Enclosure NEMA 1; Mounting Surface; Approval UL; Voltage Rating 240 VAC 3-Phase 3-Wire, 120/208 VAC 3-Phase 4-Wire
www.shopsiemensdirect.com www.shopsiemensdirect.com
Click to expand...
You beat me to it, but the op probably needs to change the QO breaker to a HM too.
 
synchro said:
If the electrical coordinator is saying Siemens GFCI breakers will work, you could put one in a smaller enclosure like at the link below instead of the disconnect.

Siemens Circuit Breaker Enclosure E0303ML3100S | Siemens - Warshauer Electric Supply

Circuit Breaker Enclosure; Type Breaker; Breaker Type 2/3-Pole QP/QPH/HQP; Breaker/Switch Current Rating 100 Ampere; Size 7-3/8 Inch W x 4-5/16 Inch D x 17-1/8 Inch H; Enclosure NEMA 1; Mounting Surface; Approval UL; Voltage Rating 240 VAC 3-Phase 3-Wire, 120/208 VAC 3-Phase 4-Wire
www.shopsiemensdirect.com www.shopsiemensdirect.com
Click to expand...
This is definitely an option. But this will require an engineers approval because adding another overcurrent device will have an impact on the selective coordination study. How much of an impact? Could be nothing at all or maybe it does? These studies are required to be done by an engineer. The problem with submitting this for approval is the store opens next week and they are trying to just throw out a solution.
 
hillbilly1 said:
You beat me to it, but the op probably needs to change the QO breaker to a HM too.
Click to expand...
It is a QOB 10kva breaker not a QO. Also, I am not certain they make an HM breaker for the panel that it will need to be installed in and if they do what is the lead time to acquire the breaker? This, like adding a Siemens setup may or may not have an impact on the selective coordination study. For us, we would not want to add additional overcurrent devices to the circuit without the engineer signing off on it. This might sound petty but as a contractor we have to careful of exposure to liability.
 
hillbilly1 said:
The problem is probably not the gfi portion of the breaker, but the inrush on startup. It will probably require a QO high magnetic breaker, but I doubt it is made with ground fault protection. Maybe change to a QO HM breaker, with a separate gfi breaker and enclosure such as an ABB.
Click to expand...

tortuga said:
I am not sure it would, others may correct me here but I think if you have a SQ D branch breaker up stream then the Siemens GFCI breaker / Enclosure is just providing supplemental GFCI protection.
Click to expand...
tortuga said:
I am not sure it would, others may correct me here but I think if you have a SQ D branch breaker up stream then the Siemens GFCI breaker / Enclosure is just providing supplemental GFCI protection.
Click to expand...
You might be absolutely correct and I actually agree. However, we would not do it without the engineer signing off on it.
 
PbMXer_218 said:
I completely agree. But, does the hard wire method exempt this circuit from the GFCI requirement in a commercial kitchen? I feel like this is a little bit of a gray area on this particular scenario.
Click to expand...
Duplicate topic was recently discussed below:

No kitchen equipment NRTL Approval - Is this a showstopper?

I'm an electrical engineer working with a prospective client to help them decide whether they can move forward with a restaurant fit-out job. The restaurant owner wants to use a bunch of foreign kitchen equipment that hasn't been tested by a NRTL. I'm just part of a team working on the MEP...
forums.mikeholt.com
 
hillbilly1 said:
Maybe change to a QO HM breaker, with a separate gfi breaker and enclosure such as an ABB.
Click to expand...
The Quick Open feature of the QO/B family is only on the 1 Pole 15 and 20A devices. This does not mean that a 3 pole QO/B does not trip faster than some of its competitors.
 
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PbMXer_218 said:
It is a QOB 10kva breaker not a QO. Also, I am not certain they make an HM breaker for the panel that it will need to be installed in and if they do what is the lead time to acquire the breaker? This, like adding a Siemens setup may or may not have an impact on the selective coordination study. For us, we would not want to add additional overcurrent devices to the circuit without the engineer signing off on it. This might sound petty but as a contractor we have to careful of exposure to liability.
Click to expand...
The only difference between the two is one is bolt on, the other is plug on. Both will fit in a QOD panelboard.
 
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