The fact that we are having this discussion proves its a waste of time talking to people who more focused on being right than doing the right thing. The nfpa code panel needs to wake up and put their feelings aside . Just look at how many times the term grounding is misused in the code
EGC
- Thread starter pedro1200
- Start date
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
They do make changes but they won't touch the EGC to EBC change. We went from light fixtures to luminaires, switches to wall mounted control devices, etc. but the one that makes the most sense they won't change. If you want to truly differentiate grounding from bonding this change is a no brainer.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Actually the members of CMP 5 are all very good ....one of the issues in changing a long standing code rule is lack of technical substantiation and testing results. They all know that having a full size EGC in each raceway of a parallel set is not required, but until someone spends the money for testing to prove that you don't need a full size EGC in each raceway, the code will not be changed. There are no feelings involved.
Have you ever sat in on a code making panel meeting or a task group meeting?
As far as the term grounding, many of those have been corrected over the past few code cycles, but one of the issues, is that the panel with grounding expertise. CMP 5, does not have purview over the use of that term other than in Articles 200 and 250, and now 270 for over 1000 volt grounding.
Have you submitted Public Inputs to correct the sections where you thing the term grounding is misused?
Note that there is a lot of room for interpenetration in code language, just because you or I do not agree with a code making panel does not mean that they are wrong.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
And it should be noted that even without a GEC or local grounding electrode system, the system will almost certainly still be grounded adequately. When you consider that most distribution systems are MGN's, electrodes at the transformer, underground metallic water systems, equipment ground to a well casing in the case of a well, or even just boxes and equipment fastened to masonry. It would be extremely unlikely to have a system that truly floats ungrounded. And even if it did truly float, really I don't see much of a safety hazard. Probably the only thing bad that could happen is if a high voltage line fell on a service drop.
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
This only applies to Power Company service entrance locations and not to separatley derived systems.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
True, but in the case of an SDS (assuming installed correctly) the system will be grounded by the EGC run with the primary. There's no technical reason that a separate GEC needs to be run and it's just another case of the NEC furthering grounding myths and misunderstandings.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
The country of Norway tried to go undergrounded because they decided it was safer. The problem was like you say here, it was impossible to keep everything floating.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
and that is just another one that CMP 5 needs a technical substantiation to overturn a long standing rule...just logic is not a technical substantiation. They need to see verified testing results.
Master Nater
Member
- Location
- Midwest
- Occupation
- Electrical Magician
just like tonight, we've got thunderstorms rolling through. i'd love to see how many electronics you have burnt up, because you don't think that grounding it important.
it seems, you live in a very-well grounded world, and have simply forgotten everything grounding does to protect you. even when you don't understand it's there.
just because you don't understand static and lightning, does not mean it will leave you alone.
Master Nater
Member
- Location
- Midwest
- Occupation
- Electrical Magician
feel free to take the "isolated home challenge." as soon as the first electrical storm rolls through, or a dry-air mass, or some kind of other ionic disturbace comes through, you're going to turn everything metallic in your entire house into a giant capacitor. all of the ions in the atmosphere will begin giving off static charges to everything metal in your house. those charges will build up, until they build up enough to be able to JUMP to something that actually makes contact to the earth. you know, just like a capacitor. JUST LIKE LIGHTNING, ITSELF.
but this is only going to be recognized if you're not the surprise path that the static build-up finds to jump to the earth. if it's big enough, you won't even get to tell anyone how wrong you were. sounds a bit over-the-top, doesn't it? IT'S NOT. have you ever grabbed a metallic storm door that shocked the hell out of you? the reason it did, is because it's a chunk of metal that is isolated from the earth and our grounded electrical system. i agree, it doesn't feel good. now, imagine your entire electrical system's metallic mass, taking on that same charge, and discharging it all through YOU. that's a lot of electrons, and a lot of amperes.
but you feel free to sit there in your well-grounded home, and pretend like it could never happen to you. i'd just like to ask that you stop putting crazy ideas in other people's heads. grounding is FAR more important than you realize. just because you're living in a well-grounded world, doesn't mean you should stop appreciating it.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
we are simply not going to agree
Master Nater
Member
- Location
- Midwest
- Occupation
- Electrical Magician
well, we agree on that. (i assume this means you're not going to take the isolated home challenge)
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
Your reasoning is very flawed. Are electronics fying all the time whenever they are uplugged? And what about all the other metal objects just sitting on shelfs or benches, I dont recall ever seeing static jump and never feel any static when I touch these things. Many electronics these days are fed with isoloated power supplies and dont have a ground connection past it. There are millions of homes with knob and tube or other wiring with no EGC and stuff plugged into outlets with cheaters and they all work fine.
Grounding really doesnt do as much as you think it does.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
This is a common problematic issue with the NEC where there is a code rule that no one knows why it is in there and no once can come up with any reason, but then they say they need substantiation to change it. Very flawed logic going on.
Master Nater
Member
- Location
- Midwest
- Occupation
- Electrical Magician
no, my reasoning is not flawed. just many people's understanding of what our well-grounded world does for them. because many of them simply do not see what is happening.
i'm not sure what "fying" is. you're going to have to clarify.
to take a shot in the breeze, i will try to clarify something you're missing. for the purposes of this conversation, everything in this instance would still be "bonded" for fault current. simply not attached to the earth - GROUNDED. so, having that equipotential plane bonded together would make it an amazingly large METALLIC MASS, that is not attached to the earth. do you have any idea how much static charge that place could potentially build? enough to kill you and me. that's how much.
making a reference to knob and tube is useless. the neutral conductor IS THE GROUNDED CONDUCTOR. to say that "K&T is not grounded" is simply incorrect.
like i said. my reasoning is not flawed. what is flawed is some well-intentioned people's mis-understanding of how grounding works, and how electrical charges act and build in our atmosphere and world when not given an outlet for that stored static electricity.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
That was supposed to be "frying", sorry.
Sorry, no.
Metal parts of equipment would not be grounded. Thought that is what we were talking about was equipment frames not being earthed, NOT system grounding.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Many k&T installations were ungrounded when initially installed. Many rural areas that had no utility power yet they had (I believe 32 volt) wind chargers that charged batteries and had fuses in both lines but not necessarily a grounding electrode. These same k&t circuits were connected to 120 volts when the REA came and brought utility power to the premises.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
- Occupation
- Electrician
How come no one gets shocked or killed touching their cars? Thats a 2-5 ton mass of steel isolated from the ground. Their electronics frying is also very rare.
Master Nater
Member
- Location
- Midwest
- Occupation
- Electrical Magician
and the smart folks back then, put lightning rods on top of their homes. these used to be common practice. but we don't need them anymore, because we have effectively grounded our homes and everything around us, including a national grid of overhead utility lines, with our grounding electrode systems.
you didn't think these simple people went out of their way to put those rods on top of their houses, just because they had too much money, and they looked cool. did you?
back in the days of not having a grounded world, they understood the importance of it, because they didn't have it all done for them. today, we simply take it for granted, and many do not understand it because we do not see the damage isolation causes in electric disturbance events.
Master Nater
Member
- Location
- Midwest
- Occupation
- Electrical Magician
that's a great question. how many ACTUAL lightning damage calls have you been on? i'm not talking about coming upon something you simply don't understand and blaming it on lightning, or the customer trying to blame it on lightning so he can get an insurance check. i'm talking about an actual lightning damage call where you can tell it's lightning, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
one where lightning has obviously struck something isolated like a gutter system on a house, and rode into the house on a low-voltage cable like a dish antenna, and found it's way to the dish receiver, and then JUMPED to our grounding system in that receiver and destroyed it's internal components. why? because the static charge built up on the co-ax cable found it's way to the electronics in the receiver, JUMPED to either the equipment ground of the case or the neutral conductor on the circuit board, and caused a bunch of damage. then found it's way back to the earth on OUR well-grounded electrical system. jumping to the neutral conductor or EGC does not matter, they are both attached to the earth.
the car is another instance i'm not even going to get into right now.