Panel replacement - creative ideas

T

trevorm

Member
Location
Central Washington
Occupation
Electrician
Here is an interesting panel replacement job that I'm in no rush to get done. My background is 20 years in mostly industrial high voltage so i'm always trying to learn and see what creative ways others have for solving the same problems in resi stuff. Its an old zinso panel in a house with mixed emt and nm entering it. If it was commercial i'd just use a panelboard with no knockouts but there is no space for the thicker and wider (more expensive) panelboard (max 14.5" width). The cleanest would be if i could special order a load center with no pre-cut knockouts. Next would be a 4x4x12 gutter across the top, that's a lot of time to pull back the wire and cut the conduit. Lastly what I don't really consider as an option would be to use a carbide cutter to cut holes in a stock load center but thats just going to make a mess of mickey mouse ears.



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Will a flush cover even fit with the loadcenter so close to the corner?

As far as the KO's.

The right side should be pretty easy since there are only 2 EMT's. They should fall very close to the factory KO's even if you have to enlarge the back one.

On the left side you would need to see how close the EMT's line up to the factory KO's. If drilling or punching is going to make a mess of the top one option is to bolt a piece of metal over the area and drill it. Essentially making that side of the panel top a "blank end wall". I have used spare pull box covers to create custom KO's.
 
curt swartz said:
Will a flush cover even fit with the loadcenter so close to the corner?

As far as the KO's.

The right side should be pretty easy since there are only 2 EMT's. They should fall very close to the factory KO's even if you have to enlarge the back one.

On the left side you would need to see how close the EMT's line up to the factory KO's. If drilling or punching is going to make a mess of the top one option is to bolt a piece of metal over the area and drill it. Essentially making that side of the panel top a "blank end wall". I have used spare pull box covers to create custom KO's.
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This old panel is 12" wide so the customer would remove the stud to the left which isn't needed for the door frame to give enough space for the 14.25" panel. I would have to use a surface mount cover since yes, there is no room on the right side for the flush mount.

I agree with the right side, should be fairly easy. Good call for the left, those 5 emts don't even close to line up with the layouts. I was going to need to bolt a four square cover on the back for the service entrance as well since it won't line up with the existing 12" wide panel. I'll have to find a gutter or pull box cover for the top and make that work, seems like the best option!
 
How much money are you looking to spend? You could probably order a column width panelboard with no KO's. They're typically about 9" wide.
 
Just go to a sheet metal shop and have them cut you a blank piece of metal the size you need. They could also cut/punch all the hole if you get one with a plasma cutter and give them a sketch. You could measure off the old panel, and have it made before you start.
 
trevorm said:
How would you deal with the conduit on the top left? seems like bolting a plate on and knocking out through that might be the way to go.
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i'd need you to back up and take a picture further away so i can see more of what's going on.

i'd be looking to see how many couplings or fittings like that LB on the right, are accessible, so an emt-to-flex connector can be utilized to put in FMC, to make the changeover day easier.
 
New panel boards have an awful lot of KO’s.

You could always transition to metal flex from the Lb and the wonky emt on the right, right at that coupling. 👍
 
Man it’s a resi job that’s getting sheet on just blows holes were you need an use reducing washer to cover micky mouse ears—- move stud father over than panel and have them slap another 2x4 on other side of wall- job take 4 hours
you can overthink this.

The fact it’s exposed it’s a cake walk- doing that without damaging wall if it was finished would require some planning- just do to town man
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
New panel boards have an awful lot of KO’s.

You could always transition to metal flex from the Lb and the wonky emt on the right, right at that coupling. 👍
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Panelboards or Loadcenters? None of the Panelboard cans I purchase have any KO's. The one manufacture I frequently use doesn't even offer cans with KO's as an option.
 
curt swartz said:
Panelboards or Loadcenters? None of the Panelboard cans I purchase have any KO's. The one manufacture I frequently use doesn't even offer cans with KO's as an option.
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Who do you use and do you not do residential cause I’ve never seen a residential panel. It doesn’t have ko. I can see that as a good thing and a bad thing. For his situation and non-KO would be great, but for most panel change those KO’s speed the process up because you can just put NMB wherever.
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
I’m not even entirely sure of the difference, and I’ve researched it many times
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Technically there is no difference.

Loadcenters are a marketing term for cost reduced (no frills) panelboards. They were originally intended for the residential market, hence the dimensions that fit into a standard 16” w stud bay.
 
AC\DC said:
Who do you use and do you not do residential cause I’ve never seen a residential panel. It doesn’t have ko. I can see that as a good thing and a bad thing. For his situation and non-KO would be great, but for most panel change those KO’s speed the process up because you can just put NMB wherever.
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All of the manufactures of factory assembled panelboards supply cans with no KO's as standard. I believe the big 4 manufactures still offer the option of KO's in the end walls.

I primarily use SquareD and IEM. My suppliers stocks all the standard SquareD cans with no KO's. IEM doesn't offer cans with KO's.

I have never seen a blank end wall loadcenter.

As Jim said Loadcenters and Panelboards are technically the same but in the real world they are very different. Even in the manufactures catalogs they are listed in completely different sections.

I seldom use loadcenters for any commercial work.
 
So:

Panelboard: - Larger, heavy duty, no KO’s, possibly made for bolt on breakers, possibly has din rail.

Load Center: - Designed primarily for residential and light commercial, usually has KO’s all around, designed for plug in breakers, lighter duty and thinner metal enclosures.

Is that about the sum of it?
 
Seven-Delta-FortyOne said:
So:

Panelboard: - Larger, heavy duty, no KO’s, possibly made for bolt on breakers, possibly has din rail.

Load Center: - Designed primarily for residential and light commercial, usually has KO’s all around, designed for plug in breakers, lighter duty and thinner metal enclosures.

Is that about the sum of it?
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A panelboard usually has more options.
Large sub feed breakers upto 400A
Feed-through lugs mounted directly on the bus
Variety of enclosures like Type 12
Factory customization and assembly
Usually sold as individual components enclosure, interior and trim

But the two product line are really interchangeable as far as the NEC and Listing agencies care.
 
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