'08 Code avoidance

[electricmanscott]

Talked to a buddy the other day. He was pulling a permit for a house that he'll be wiring sometime this year. The sole reason for getting the permit now was to avoid the code changes for 2008. I told him I thought it was a sleazy move and I wouldn't do that. He actually told the HO about the new rules and gave her the idea that this is the way to go.

The inspector said there was a ton of permits taken out last week just for this reason. He also said he doesn't "believe" in the new changes and he'd do the same thing if he were in our shoes.

IN my view if you did this you just left money on the table right next to a big heap of your integrity. So now Let's not have another whine fest about how we can't make as much as the plumbers. They would never pull such a stupid move.

 

[stickboy1375]

I don't see the point since its only one job.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

They (plumbers)would never pull such a stupid move.

They would if they had bid the job based on the 05 nec. Of course the plumber wouldn't care about the 05 nec. :grin:

 

[peter d]

Some people just don't think in terms of profits.

Electricians are good at not making money, what can I say? It's a sad state of affairs.

 

[charlie b]

I don?t view this move as sleazy, and I would not call the person?s integrity into question. The rules that exist today were considered adequate for safety, when they were enacted. They still are considered adequate for safety. If the future (i.e., the future date on which the local jurisdiction will adopt the 2008 NEC) will bring other rules into play, those rules do not come into play until they are enacted. Perhaps they will make the world even safer than it is today; perhaps not. In the mean time, you follow today?s rules.

 

[rcarroll]

1st. when the plumbing code changed from the UPC to IPC, the IPC is less restrictive in a lot of areas. The plumbers saved on material & such.
Now, in my town, the GC will usually pull a permit for all trades in the house, & they have to have some kind of activity on that permit within 180 days. I suppose some folks are going to try to avoid the 08 NEC by getting permits ahead of time. It's a gamble, IMO.

 

[rcarroll]

Electricians are good at not making money,

That's why I became an inspector. :wink:

 

[cowboyjwc]

I have not done more than four or five planchecks a week, if that many, for the last couple of months. Last week 15 of them showed up on my desk.

Now not so much for the electrical trade, but the GC's got spooked, not realizing that some of the building codes here in CA are now less restrictive than the old ones and they might have been better off waiting.

That'll teach 'em not to go to the code update classes.

 

[peter d]

The major differences for the '08 for residential are Combo Arc fault breakers, AFCI's on almost every circuit, tamper resistant receptacles, and much less MWBC's because of the AFCI expansion.

So the EC will have much more opportunity to mark up high dollar material. And instead of using 14/3 he will have to use 14/4 or more 14/2 home runs. More mark up.

Let's start seeing the forest for the trees here.

 

[frankft2000]

IN my view if you did this you just left money on the table right next to a big heap of your integrity. So now Let's not have another whine fest about how we can't make as much as the plumbers. They would never pull such a stupid move.

It depends. If he was bidding against another legit contractor the he left money on the table, but if the homeowner was going to hire a handyman or Fly By Night Electric, then he would loose the job and get no money.

 

[electricmanscott]

I don?t view this move as sleazy, and I would not call the person?s integrity into question.

I do...and I did. :grin:

This is not a matter of doing it to today's rules. When these jobs are going to happen the '08 code will be today's rules.

I don't understand why you wouldn't just say hey I bid the job a couple months ago, the code changed since then, you have to pay for the changes if you want to pass inspection.

The fact that he suggested a way to avoid complying with what will be the current code certainly puts their integrity in question. If I were a customer I would be wary of someone who thought like this let alone suggested it.

As Peter pointed out, which was actually my point, money left on the table.

 

[peter d]

Let me also point out that I am no fan of these new code rules, as they seem to be leading us into a "nanny state" mentality. But we've already been down that road so what's the point.

So let's start making money with this stuff.

 

[danickstr]

I try to think in terms of saving my customers from an inconvenience, since they are the ones paying me, not the NEC. Lawyers use loopholes all day long, and we don;t consider them sleazy....er, wait a second, forget that.

I am just saying that taking into consideration the best of both worlds for the person who pays you is not necessarily sleazy, but it shows them that you are creative at using the rules to advantage, which could be both good and bad for them.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Scott
Not everyone agrees that some of the changes made in the '08 are there because of safety reasons.

 

[charlie b]

I should be more inclined to think a person sleazy, if he were to delay the start of a job for no better reason (note that I emphasized that phrase in an attempt to avoid giving offence to any forum members) than that new rules would have time to come into play, resulting in a higher fee. My notion of integrity involves giving the customer the best value for their money, without compromising on safety, and without violating the rules that are in effect at the time of the job.

By way of a counter-example, I had a client (late last Summer) ask us to impliment a 2008 NEC requirement (related to MWBCs), even though the 2008 NEC has not yet been adopted (and may never be adopted) in my State. Their committee talked it over, and decided they liked the improvement in safety that that new rule would provide. They were willing to pay the extra costs for design services, material, and labor, because of a safety concern. That is a strong indicator of integrity, in my book.

 

[ryan_618]

We always get a BIG heap of plans at the end of a code cycle for this very reason. We adopt the NEC on a different cycle than the other codes, so it is more pronounced in the December before the building code gets adopted.

 

[electricmanscott]

So then the new AFCI's do NOT provide addtional safety. Tamper resistant receptacles also do not add a measure of safety either?

 

[growler]

Talked to a buddy the other day. He was pulling a permit for a house that he'll be wiring sometime this year. The sole reason for getting the permit now was to avoid the code changes for 2008. I told him I thought it was a sleazy move and I wouldn't do that. He actually told the HO about the new rules and gave her the idea that this is the way to go.
IN my view if you did this you just left money on the table right next to a big heap of your integrity.

I don't see how there is money left on the table unless this is a time and materials job. This may be just a rumor but I have herd that you can actually make money by cutting materials cost on a job that you have to bid. It normally works out better if you can do it in a legal manor but this sounds legal enough to me.

How do you know that he's not charging more for labor to make up for material cost savings?

As far as integrity goes I think it's highy over rated. Ever see an honest man get elected to public office? The public doesn't like men of integrity because such men make them feel inferior. :grin: :grin:

 

[electricmanscott]

I don't see how there is money left on the table unless this is a time and materials job.

Just as an example, use whatever numbers you want.

3 Bedroom hoouse
3 standard afcis @ $30.00 ea sold for $43.50 Puts $40.50 in your bank

6 Combo afcis @ 50.00 ea sold for $72.50 Puts $135.00 in your bank

You leave $94.50 on the table.

Same holds true for TR receptacles.

 

[growler]

6 Combo afcis @ 50.00 ea sold for $72.50 Puts $135.00 in your bank

6 Combo afcis @ 50.00 ea sold for $72.50 Puts $135.00 in your bank.

6 Regular breakers @ 4.00 ea. sold at $50.00 puts $276.00 in your bank.

Plus the fact that my materials cost is $135.00 dollars less than yours and this is all the customer will see. Cut a dollar here and another dollar there and pretty soon I'm charging less and making more.

Why do you think they put so much dog food in the Hamburgers at McDonalds . Meat is Expensive. :grin: :grin: