'08 Code avoidance

[electricmanscott]

Why do you think they put so much dog food in the Hamburgers at McDonalds

'cause it tastes soooo good. :grin:

 

[JohnE]

Scott, count me in with the sleazeballs.:grin:

Last Friday I was on the phone with a builder I work for regularly in Needham. We were talking about a temp service for the house he is framing. Then he says, by the way, we need to talk about what this house is going to cost me. I say, exactly what the last one cost, per unit. He laughs and says "OK, I'm just checking with all my subs to see if I can save anything since the houses aren't getting what they used to. Let's just see if we can cut out some of the fluff I've been putting in." I realize that if I run to the town hall and get him a permit, I can save him about a thousand or so. I also took out 6 other permits that day for jobs in the very near future.

I don't embrace the new AFCI requirements or the TR receptacle requirements. I don't know anyone who has been embracing them and upselling them in the past. Heck, we have not been prohibited from installing these items in the past. Yet virtually nobody has. Were you selling them?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Scott, count me in with the sleazeballs.:grin:

Last Friday I was on the phone with a builder I work for regularly in Needham. We were talking about a temp service for the house he is framing. Then he says, by the way, we need to talk about what this house is going to cost me. I say, exactly what the last one cost, per unit. He laughs and says "OK, I'm just checking with all my subs to see if I can save anything since the houses aren't getting what they used to. Let's just see if we can cut out some of the fluff I've been putting in." I realize that if I run to the town hall and get him a permit, I can save him about a thousand or so. I also took out 6 other permits that day for jobs in the very near future.

I don't embrace the new AFCI requirements or the TR receptacle requirements. I don't know anyone who has been embracing them and upselling them in the past. Heck, we have not been prohibited from installing these items in the past. Yet virtually nobody has. Were you selling them?

John,

It sounds like you are acting as a partner with the builder you work with. I commend you for being that way.

 

[electricmanscott]

John, I was not upselling AFCIs in the past. Here's why. Everything I read on this site basically bashes the product. From what I read here, they are a waste, they don't work as advertised, and are simply there to line the manufacturers pocket. The last part may or may not be true. I say that because while they may be making a boatload of money on these, a boatload was spent to develop them. So if they can do it, good for them.

Now...If the claims are correct. And I sit here with a load of Siemens "AFCIs will save your family" literature on my desk, and everything in it sounds damn good, why would I not want these in my house at such a small cost. Same holds true for TR receptacles, CO2 detectors, GFCI's and so on. All things we are required to install more of which also comes at a higher price. (and of course higher profit)

The bottom line for me is that taken at face value, following the '08 code and installing these items as required, you will deliver a better and by that I mean safer installation. In theory by avoiding these codes you may not be providing an unsafe installation but it may not be as safe as it can be. Just my opinion.

Just to add...I have installed some AFCI's in my own house. I am going to change those out and add even more. All combo type. Count me as drinking the Kool Aid I guess.

 

[iwire]

It's not illegal and I bet it happens every code cycle with every trade.

I don't see it as a big deal....at least they are pulling permits and getting inspections.

However Scott did say something that I really agree with.

The fact that he suggested a way to avoid complying with what will be the current code certainly puts their integrity in question. If I were a customer I would be wary of someone who thought like this let alone suggested it.

If I was the customer that would make me think hard about what other short cuts this person might take.

So from a safety view point I see it as a non-issue, but it might make me think less of the ECs standards and business practices.

 

[electricmanscott]

Also John, I like that you and your builder are working together, for lack of a better way to put it. That gennerally woeks to everyones benefit.

You guys could also use the new afci's and TR receptacles as a selliing point. Do like the legislature does when they want something..."It is for the children"

Leave some of the Manufacturers literature for prospective home buyers to read. They'll be scared to death to live in a house that does not have AFCI's. They'll buy on the spot.

If I had realized TR receptacles existed ten years ago I would have put them in my own house. There is no greater frustration than trying to remove those little safety caps to plug something in.

Plus...the children could choke on those caps...I don't know about you guys but I don't want to kill children. :grin:

 

[electricmanscott]

Scott, count me in with the sleazeballs.:grin:

You have be counted. :grin:

 

[iwire]

I don't know about you guys but I don't want to kill children. :grin:

LOL :grin:

As long as it's for the children.

 

[Brady Electric]

08 code avoidance

08 code avoidance

I don?t view this move as sleazy, and I would not call the person?s integrity into question. The rules that exist today were considered adequate for safety, when they were enacted. They still are considered adequate for safety. If the future (i.e., the future date on which the local jurisdiction will adopt the 2008 NEC) will bring other rules into play, those rules do not come into play until they are enacted. Perhaps they will make the world even safer than it is today; perhaps not. In the mean time, you follow today?s rules.

I agree with you and you couldn't put it any better. Semper Fi

 

[JohnE]

Also John, I like that you and your builder are working together, for lack of a better way to put it. That gennerally woeks to everyones benefit.

Yes, we have a good relationship, that is why he is not searching for a cheaper contractor right now.

You guys could also use the new afci's and TR receptacles as a selliing point. Do like the legislature does when they want something..."It is for the children"

Yes, but at least we have a choice on whether or not to do it now.

If I had realized TR receptacles existed ten years ago I would have put them in my own house. There is no greater frustration than trying to remove those little safety caps to plug something in.

Close to 10 years ago I did a house where the lady insisted on having them. Cost about $4 a piece then. I threw the remaining ones away about a year ago because I was cleaning house and couldn't stand moving them and figured I'd never have a call for them again.

Plus...the children could choke on those caps...I don't know about you guys but I don't want to kill children. :grin:

Ummm...............sometimes I do.:grin:

 

[bphgravity]

This type of thing happens all the time, or at least any tiime there is going to be a change in permitting fees or building code.

Builders and contractors closely watch for code change dates, permit fee changes, and impact fee changes. They will submitt literally dozens of permits ahead of a fee increase simply to keep the savings.

I doubt any are systematically trying to avoid building a less safe product or defraud their customer, its just a matter of MONEY...

 

[peter d]

Leave some of the Manufacturers literature for prospective home buyers to read. They'll be scared to death to live in a house that does not have AFCI's. They'll buy on the spot.

LOL. My mom read a newspaper article about AFCI's, and then told me she wanted them installed in my parent's house. I then explained they weren't all they're cracked up to be. And not to mention they are all MWBC's feeding the bedrooms, on an old GE panel.