10/3, 8/3 and 6/3 Without Ground Romex

[mbrooke]

Did this stuff actually exist in the 80s and 90s? Every range and dryer that I see seems to just have the ground cut off flush at the panel and at the receptacle. Wouldn't one less wire have been cheaper?

 

[LarryFine]

Yes, it was available without ground. I've even seen two 10-3 w/o ground cables paralleled for a range/oven circuit.

Think about how cable manufacturing evolved from the perspective of the past, not from what we have and use now.

It's like asking why anyone would want a high-leg delta now, rather than remembering it started as a modification.

 

[James L]

When I started in '92 we had "plain" wire without a ground - even 14/2 that was used for things like switch loops, keyless lampholders, etc.

In '96 all the wire started coming with a ground wire, but municipalities were still using '93 code for a while. We would just cut the ground off even with the sheathing.

I remember, too, when '96 code was adopted en masse, we were still wiring dryer receptacles into a single gang box. Only to find out on the finish that the 4-prong receptacles were too wide to fit in it.

 

[LarryFine]

When I started in '92 we had "plain" wire without a ground - even 14/2 that was used for things like switch loops, keyless lampholders, etc.

I've worked in houses that were wired with the home runs wired with cables with ground wires hitting bathrooms and kitchen lighting first, then continued on to other rooms with cables without ground wires.

 

[James L]

I've worked in houses that were wired with the home runs wired with cables with ground wires hitting bathrooms and kitchen lighting first, then continued on to other rooms with cables without ground wires.

For sure. Anything that was ungrounded would be wired on the end of the circuit.

We used to use 14/3 plain for 3-way travelers. I remember when we started using grounded 14/3 and guys were cutting off the ground wire even with the sheathing. We were being told, and then telling others, don't cut that off. That's a neutral if we ever need one

 

[kwired]

Did this stuff actually exist in the 80s and 90s? Every range and dryer that I see seems to just have the ground cut off flush at the panel and at the receptacle. Wouldn't one less wire have been cheaper?

About all we ever had until 1996 NEC came along was the no ground type. Was somewhat unusual to need any of those cables with a EGC. Running circuit to non service panel would be where the EGC was needed, but didn't seem to happen all that much for us. We didn't do much multifamily, those places probably needed separate EGC nearly all the time as well as mobile homes.

I hate it when people cut off an EGC or any other not used conductor in a cable. Seems like sometime down the road you end up wishing it wasn't cut off, just tuck it in behind other conductors and leave it for if it would ever be needed.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Did this stuff actually exist in the 80s and 90s? Every range and dryer that I see seems to just have the ground cut off flush at the panel and at the receptacle. Wouldn't one less wire have been cheaper?

You say that like it was back in ancient times...

of course it did. No different than the fact that cloth covered wire existed.
Cres-flex

 

[mbrooke]

Yes, it was available without ground. I've even seen two 10-3 w/o ground cables paralleled for a range/oven circuit.

Think about how cable manufacturing evolved from the perspective of the past, not from what we have and use now.

It's like asking why anyone would want a high-leg delta now, rather than remembering it started as a modification.

Right, but I still can't figure out why they ordered 10/3 with ground at the supply house knowing they wouldn't use the ground.

 

[mbrooke]

You say that like it was back in ancient times...

of course it did. No different than the fact that cloth covered wire existed.
Cres-flex

Its ancient to me

How far forward did they make cloth covered NM?

 

[LarryFine]

Right, but I still can't figure out why they ordered 10/3 with ground at the supply house knowing they wouldn't use the ground.

Either that's the only way it came, they got it for when they need it, or they were dumb.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have seen that alot. If a light fixture or especially a smoke detector has no equipment grounding conductor they just cut off the equipment grounding conductor instead of leaving it.

 

[mbrooke]

Either that's the only way it came, they got it for when they need it, or they were dumb.

Odd though.

 

[mbrooke]

About all we ever had until 1996 NEC came along was the no ground type. Was somewhat unusual to need any of those cables with a EGC. Running circuit to non service panel would be where the EGC was needed, but didn't seem to happen all that much for us. We didn't do much multifamily, those places probably needed separate EGC nearly all the time as well as mobile homes.

I hate it when people cut off an EGC or any other not used conductor in a cable. Seems like sometime down the road you end up wishing it wasn't cut off, just tuck it in behind other conductors and leave it for if it would ever be needed.

You kidding? Around here every remote panel and condo received a 3 wire feed. SEU, 3 wire romex without ground , 2 wire with ground and 3 wire with ground but the ground either in parallel or cut off flush.

 

[electrofelon]

I've worked in houses that were wired with the home runs wired with cables with ground wires hitting bathrooms and kitchen lighting first, then continued on to other rooms with cables without ground wires.

For sure. Anything that was ungrounded would be wired on the end of the circuit.

We used to use 14/3 plain for 3-way travelers. I remember when we started using grounded 14/3 and guys were cutting off the ground wire even with the sheathing. We were being told, and then telling others, don't cut that off. That's a neutral if we ever need one

What did the code say at the time in terms of what required an EGC?

 

[James L]

What did the code say at the time in terms of what required an EGC?

I don't know. That was before I really cared about a book. We just went with common practice.

But, considering that we had "plain" romex, I would imagine that if it was a nonmetallic box, and a nonmetallic device, there wouldn't have been any requirement for a ground wire.

 

[kwired]

I don't know. That was before I really cared about a book. We just went with common practice.

But, considering that we had "plain" romex, I would imagine that if it was a nonmetallic box, and a nonmetallic device, there wouldn't have been any requirement for a ground wire.

I don't know how long ago for certain, but a switch in a non metallic box didn't need to bond the yoke unless you were installing a metallic plate on it. Maybe sometime in 1990's they required bonding the yoke regardless.

 

[kwired]

You kidding? Around here every remote panel and condo received a 3 wire feed. SEU, 3 wire romex without ground , 2 wire with ground and 3 wire with ground but the ground either in parallel or cut off flush.


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There was a lot of that around here up until mid 1990's. Not as much dwelling inspections before then, and was more non qualified (or at least fewer with extensive code knowledge) wiring these places back then as well.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

I started out in the field in 1982. We would run 6/3 SE aluminum for three wire ranges and 10/3 romex for three wire dryers. The egc on the dryer would be doubled up with the neutral or screwed to the tomb stone chaise.

 

[James L]

I don't know how long ago for certain, but a switch in a non metallic box didn't need to bond the yoke unless you were installing a metallic plate on it. Maybe sometime in 1990's they required bonding the yoke regardless.

Lots of guys here still don't. Some guys pigtail a ground on the rough-in makeup, then cut it or roll it back in the box when they put the device in.

Others don't even have any pretense, and never pigtial a ground for switches.

Most of the inspectors don't really have any idea what they're looking at, either. Many only know what they learned in their "weekly video code update" or however they're doing it

 

[kwired]

Right, but I still can't figure out why they ordered 10/3 with ground at the supply house knowing they wouldn't use the ground.

Sometimes was needed. Probably wasn't as much with ground being stocked though.

Even today you probably could get some without ground if you had a need for a minimum order quantity.

I haven't checked recently, but not too many years ago one supply house still stocked 12-2 plain (no EGC) UF cable in 3000 foot reels. Was commonly used as a control cable between well and center pivot irrigation machines at times. Power cable was usually URD type aluminum quad. More common these days to purchase cable in HDPE conduit common combination available still has the aluminum power conductors and a black and white 12 copper all in one HDPE conduit.