10/3, 8/3 and 6/3 Without Ground Romex

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Knuckle Dragger said:
I started out in the field in 1982. We would run 6/3 SE aluminum for three wire ranges and 10/3 romex for three wire dryers. The egc on the dryer would be doubled up with the neutral or screwed to the tomb stone chaise.
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I've never run AL for appliances, but seen it a bunch. I guess my early bosses thought it was just easier to keep a roll of 8/3 in the van.

About 10 years ago I worked a short stint for a hack contractor, trying to save every penny he could, no matter how. I did a finish first, and was horrified to see 8/2-g to a range, from a subpanel no less, and the bare landed on the ground bar 🤬🤬
 
James L said:
I've never run AL for appliances, but seen it a bunch. I guess my early bosses thought it was just easier to keep a roll of 8/3 in the van.

About 10 years ago I worked a short stint for a hack contractor, trying to save every penny he could, no matter how. I did a finish first, and was horrified to see 8/2-g to a range, from a subpanel no less, and the bare landed on the ground bar 🤬🤬
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I started working in this trade in 1987. My first boss was pretty good with code knowledge, yet we still ran quite a bit of 2 wire with ground mostly to dryers, the ranges we usually ran #6 SEU which would have been code compliant anyway.
 
LarryFine said:
It does, or did seem strange when a conductor connected to an exposed metal cabinet had to be insulated.
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the biggest benefit, IMHO, is that it is readily identified as a current-carrying conductor.

If someone is in the panel and they think they are looking at an air conditioner Home Run, they might disconnect the ground wire so as to move it and make room for another wire. But if it turns out it is a dryer and it has current on it , they're going to get lit up
 
kwired said:
I don't know how long ago for certain, but a switch in a non metallic box didn't need to bond the yoke unless you were installing a metallic plate on it. Maybe sometime in 1990's they required bonding the yoke regardless.
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Yeah I've seen that quite a bit on installations that arnt that old. But it seems like a 3 prong outlet would need an EGC and those have been around forever. Maybe lighting only circuits with the last to not really need an EGC?
 
James L said:
the biggest benefit, IMHO, is that it is readily identified as a current-carrying conductor.

If someone is in the panel and they think they are looking at an air conditioner Home Run, they might disconnect the ground wire so as to move it and make room for another wire. But if it turns out it is a dryer and it has current on it , they're going to get lit up
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That makes perfect, logical sense. :unsure:


Stop that! 🙃
 
kwired said:
There was a lot of that around here up until mid 1990's. Not as much dwelling inspections before then, and was more non qualified (or at least fewer with extensive code knowledge) wiring these places back then as well.
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For me it was until the late 2000s. Until I joined electrical forums I literally believed 3 wire subpanels were legal. As well as 10-2 and 6-2 with ground range and dryer circuits prior to the change.
 
James L said:
For sure. Anything that was ungrounded would be wired on the end of the circuit.

We used to use 14/3 plain for 3-way travelers. I remember when we started using grounded 14/3 and guys were cutting off the ground wire even with the sheathing. We were being told, and then telling others, don't cut that off. That's a neutral if we ever need one 😅😅😅
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Wait- you didn't ground the yoke? I've never seen that not done before.
 
James L said:
I've never run AL for appliances, but seen it a bunch. I guess my early bosses thought it was just easier to keep a roll of 8/3 in the van.

About 10 years ago I worked a short stint for a hack contractor, trying to save every penny he could, no matter how. I did a finish first, and was horrified to see 8/2-g to a range, from a subpanel no less, and the bare landed on the ground bar 🤬🤬
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That was common around here. We (me included) had no idea the neutral needed to be insulated. For us there was no debate on where to land it because the subpanels in condos always had a 3 wire feed typically SEU. Basically if it wasn't a 15 or 20 amp 120 volt circuit ground and neutral were one.
 
James L said:
Lots of guys here still don't. Some guys pigtail a ground on the rough-in makeup, then cut it or roll it back in the box when they put the device in.

Others don't even have any pretense, and never pigtial a ground for switches.

Most of the inspectors don't really have any idea what they're looking at, either. Many only know what they learned in their "weekly video code update" or however they're doing it
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Same here
 
LarryFine said:
It does, or did seem strange when a conductor connected to an exposed metal cabinet had to be insulated.
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That was the same logic which I used. I figured if its going to ground the can, chassis, j-box, ect it made no sense in being insulated. I argued once with a guy who actually knew the code insisting that the neutral had to be insulated... I regret being so hard headed now finding out he was right... live and be humbled.
 
mbrooke said:
Wait- you didn't ground the yoke? I've never seen that not done before.
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Before you didn't have to bond the yoke you could purchase switches with and without a grounding screw.

I know early on in my career we almost never bonded yoke on switches even if switch had the screw, pretty certain code didn't require bonding it unless you were using a metal wall plate.
 
kwired said:
Before you didn't have to bond the yoke you could purchase switches with and without a grounding screw.

I know early on in my career we almost never bonded yoke on switches even if switch had the screw, pretty certain code didn't require bonding it unless you were using a metal wall plate.
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I've heard that but didn't think it was real in the sense if it had the screw you had to bound it.
 
mbrooke said:
I've heard that but didn't think it was real in the sense if it had the screw you had to bound it.
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You still don't have to use the ground screw if it is metal to metal contact to the bonded box or has "self bonding" style screw retainer.
 
kwired said:
Before you didn't have to bond the yoke you could purchase switches with and without a grounding screw.

I know early on in my career we almost never bonded yoke on switches even if switch had the screw, pretty certain code didn't require bonding it unless you were using a metal wall plate.
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What I would like to know is what was the substantiation for requiring yoke straps on switches to be bonded
 
DBoone said:
What I would like to know is what was the substantiation for requiring yoke straps on switches to be bonded
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Don't tell anyone, I still don't bond them when in a PVC box with PVC cover (external operator type covers)

I think they decided cover screws are typically metallic and could still become energized if the yoke became energized. Personally still think isn't that big of an issue in a dwelling when there aren't any grounded surfaces in the vicinity, but I also don't think you can come up with any explanation that a CMP would ever accept to revert this rule.
 
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