100 amp breaker in 200 amp panel

[jxofaltrds]

Like was said above....we (POCO) will not connect a 100A service to a 200A panel even if it has a 100A main. For the obvious reason that if the customer pays fees for a 100A service, then as soon as we leave goes back and replaces the main to 200A, he gets a nice discount. Also, if the service drop is sized for 100A, the wire may not be able to handle 200A worth of load. Changing a main hot is a BAD idea, since the service is unprotected except for the transformer fuse when you are ahead of the main. Also, as stated above, pulling the meter means cutting the seal. Another bad idea. Many utilities always size service drops for 200A and charge fees based on 200A or less. But not all. Not idiots, but not very trusting either. You know the old saying...."Trust but verify".

Please inform the POCO that if you have a 100 main then your panelboard is 100 amps and meets:

408.36 Overcurrent Protection. In addition to the requirement
of 408.30, a panelboard shall be protected by an
overcurrent protective device having a rating not greater
than that of the panelboard. This overcurrent protective device
shall be located within or at any point on the supply
side of the panelboard.

It says "NOT GREATER".

If you want you could back feed as I stated earlier:

408.36
(D) Back-Fed Devices. Plug-in-type overcurrent protection
devices or plug-in type main lug assemblies that are
backfed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded
supply conductors shall be secured in place by an additional
fastener that requires other than a pull to release the
device from the mounting means on the panel.

Panelboard. A single panel or group of panel units designed
for assembly in the form of a single panel, including
buses and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped
with or without switches for the control of light, heat, or
power circuits; designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout
box placed in or against a wall, partition, or other support;
and accessible only from the front.

IMHO you can use whatever cabinet you choose.

Cabinet. An enclosure that is designed for either surface
mounting or flush mounting and is provided with a frame,
mat, or trim in which a swinging door or doors are or can
be hung.

 

[meternerd]

Interesting.....so you think you could put a class 320 panel in and as long as you install a 200A main, the utility should believe you when you promise, cross your heart and hope to die, that you'll never go back and install a bigger main? Hmmmmm. Should we, as a POCO, then install a 200A meter (yes, it will fit) and not be liable if you upsize the main, melt the meter and start a fire? I only say this because that's exactly what happened with a utility I worked for in Alaska. And, yes, we were held partially liable as "persons of knowledge" who should have known the hazard potential. Gotta love lawyers. He had a hot tub, sauna, and a huge water heater. The 200A kept tripping so guess what he did. The guy just wanted to save money on the service fees.

 

[jxofaltrds]

So I can't install 14-2wg because someone may use a 20AMP breaker?

90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is
the practical safeguarding of persons and property from
hazards arising from the use of electricity.

 

[growler]

If you want you could back feed as I stated earlier.

IMHO you can use whatever cabinet you choose.

You can back feed and use whatever cabinet you choose.

The is legal as far as the NEC and you should pass the electrical inspection.

Now comes the real question: Does the power company have to hook up the service if you are in violation of one of their rules?

 

[jxofaltrds]

You can back feed and use whatever cabinet you choose.

The is legal as far as the NEC and you should pass the electrical inspection.

Now comes the real question: Does the power company have to hook up the service if you are in violation of one of their rules?

AEP is pretty well respected. Look through their requirements and tell me how the OP could be refused service IF AEP was the provider.

https://www.aepohio.com/global/utilities/lib/docs/service/Meter/AEP_Meter_Service_Guide_7feb2014.pdf

Section 9 if you do not want to read it all.

 

[growler]

AEP is pretty well respected. Look through their requirements and tell me how the OP could be refused service IF AEP was the provider.

https://www.aepohio.com/global/utilities/lib/docs/service/Meter/AEP_Meter_Service_Guide_7feb2014.pdf

Section 9 if you do not want to read it all.

The problem is we don't know which electrical utility this is.

We have many utilities here in GA and I have not read all of their rules.

In this part of the country I have never herd of anyone not being able to use a 200 AMP panel with a 100 AMP main breaker .

The guys who seem to have herd of this are from "California" and I have never done electrical work in that state. I will not doubt their opinion until someone can prove different.

If the OP wishes to name the electrical utility we can look up their white pages and see if they have a documented rule.

I must admit that I have never seen a utility worker come into a house to see what size panel you have. All the really care about is that the permit is approved and the meter base is correct. For underground some want 2 1/2" PVC and others will accept 2" PVC.

 

[jxofaltrds]

The problem is we don't know which electrical utility this is.

We have many utilities here in GA and I have not read all of their rules.

In this part of the country I have never herd of anyone not being able to use a 200 AMP panel with a 100 AMP main breaker .

The guys who seem to have herd of this are from "California" and I have never done electrical work in that state. I will not doubt their opinion until someone can prove different.

If the OP wishes to name the electrical utility we can look up their white pages and see if they have a documented rule.

I must admit that I have never seen a utility worker come into a house to see what size panel you have. All the really care about is that the permit is approved and the meter base is correct. For underground some want 2 1/2" PVC and others will accept 2" PVC.

It is not a 200 Panel if it has a 100 AMP main.

This is no different than if I used 12 AWG for every circuit in a home and protected some of the circuits with 15 AMP breakers.

If I only need 16 breaker spaces, are you telling me I can not install a 42 space panel?

 

[growler]

POCO says I am allowed to have only a 100 amp service because their transformer can only serve so many houses with 100 amp services. I want to remove the 200 amp breaker and install a 100 amp breaker. POCO says they will not hook it up.

It is not a 200 Panel if it has a 100 AMP main.
If I only need 16 breaker spaces, are you telling me I can not install a 42 space panel?

It's still a 200 AMP rated panel even with a 100 AMP main. The service over current protection would now be at 100 AMPS. And as we have agreed to that's all that's required by the NEC.


If you read the OP then you will see that he is not having trouble passing an electrical inspection he is having trouble with the POCO. If he has a panel that is rated 200 AMPs they want some extra money.

I don't think the AHJ has anything to do with what the utility company charges for service.

The power company is not telling him he can't have a larger panel only that there will be an extra charge.

 

[jxofaltrds]

It's still a 200 AMP rated panel even with a 100 AMP main. The service over current protection would now be at 100 AMPS. And as we have agreed to that's all that's required by the NEC.


If you read the OP then you will see that he is not having trouble passing an electrical inspection he is having trouble with the POCO. If he has a panel that is rated 200 AMPs they want some extra money.

I don't think the AHJ has anything to do with what the utility company charges for service.

The power company is not telling him he can't have a larger panel only that there will be an extra charge.

If my meter base is rated for 200 AMPS I can't have a 100 AMP 'panel' in my home?

And yes I read the OP and gave him what I would tell the POCO before I filed a complaint with the PUCO.

 

[curt swartz]

In my area PG&E would consider a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp main a 200 amp service.

For overhead services it doesn't matter much since the customer is responsible for the wire in the riser. They size the drop cable according to the load.

For underground services the customer is responsible for installing the underground conduits based on the maximum buss rating of the service. They could care less what size the breaker is. If the buss rating is 2000 Amps but you only install a 400 amp breaker you are required to install conduits to accommodate 2000 amps. The utility will size the conductors for the load at the time but if the load increases they want the conduits available to pull more or larger conductors.

You can file as many complaints as you want but they are not going to change their mind. The utility has rules that are published so they must be followed. The utilities are not under the NEC.

 

[kwired]

Interesting.....so you think you could put a class 320 panel in and as long as you install a 200A main, the utility should believe you when you promise, cross your heart and hope to die, that you'll never go back and install a bigger main? Hmmmmm. Should we, as a POCO, then install a 200A meter (yes, it will fit) and not be liable if you upsize the main, melt the meter and start a fire? I only say this because that's exactly what happened with a utility I worked for in Alaska. And, yes, we were held partially liable as "persons of knowledge" who should have known the hazard potential. Gotta love lawyers. He had a hot tub, sauna, and a huge water heater. The 200A kept tripping so guess what he did. The guy just wanted to save money on the service fees.

Around here service rates are same for single phase whether you have a 60 amp service or a 600 amp service. Three phase is a different monthly rate than single phase but again is the same for a 60 amp service as it is for a 2000 amp service. There is more construction costs being passed on to customers than there used to be, which partially pays for equipment and construction costs. Those situations usually involve non dwellings though, and the costs are based on an analysis of the expected load. The more load the more energy will be purchased, and that factors into what they will charge for construction cost as well. If they build you a large service and you don't put significant load on it they are going to want more construction cost than if it is loaded more. This can hurt you some if you want a large service but don't plan to have the load for a few years, mostly in the cost of a transformer that they are going to pass some of that cost on to you. If you have a smaller transformer installed now and have them increase it when there is more load, you usually come out better, they will credit you some for the old transformer then will still charge you whatever they normally would have for the larger one.

It is not a 200 Panel if it has a 100 AMP main.

This is no different than if I used 12 AWG for every circuit in a home and protected some of the circuits with 15 AMP breakers.

If I only need 16 breaker spaces, are you telling me I can not install a 42 space panel?

Since they removed the Lighting and Appliance panelboard definition you could have a 84 circuit panel with only a 30 amp feeder if you wish, and had a situation where there was no minimum supply limitation.

In my area PG&E would consider a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp main a 200 amp service.

For overhead services it doesn't matter much since the customer is responsible for the wire in the riser. They size the drop cable according to the load.

For underground services the customer is responsible for installing the underground conduits based on the maximum buss rating of the service. They could care less what size the breaker is. If the buss rating is 2000 Amps but you only install a 400 amp breaker you are required to install conduits to accommodate 2000 amps. The utility will size the conductors for the load at the time but if the load increases they want the conduits available to pull more or larger conductors.

You can file as many complaints as you want but they are not going to change their mind. The utility has rules that are published so they must be followed. The utilities are not under the NEC.

Do they want NEC sized conductors/raceways or do they have their own specs? We install raceways for some POCO laterals around here but they pull their own conductors through them. They specify what size and number of raceways, and usually pull smaller conductors than what NEC would make contractors pull.

 

[growler]

And yes I read the OP and gave him what I would tell the POCO before I filed a complaint.

In my area PG&E would consider a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp main a 200 amp service.

You can file as many complaints as you want but they are not going to change their mind. The utility has rules that are published so they must be followed. The utilities are not under the NEC.

So Mike, you file a complaint. What exactly is your complaint? They have not refused to hook up your service, they are waiting to see if you are going to pay the hook up fees (3K$ for a new transformer).

The NEC does not address how a utility charges for their service.

I'm thinking that their rates have already been approved at state level. If you have the time and money you could take them to court and try to change their business practices.

 

[jxofaltrds]

So Mike, you file a complaint. What exactly is your complaint? They have not refused to hook up your service, they are waiting to see if you are going to pay the hook up fees (3K$ for a new transformer).

The NEC does not address how a utility charges for their service.

I'm thinking that their rates have already been approved at state level. If you have the time and money you could take them to court and try to change their business practices.

My complaint that is I met the codified rules (2011 NEC) of the State of Ohio adopted by the Board of Building Standards. The State of Ohio says that it is ok so the POCO better have a damn could reason to deny me service. This is existing and I did nothing to change the demand at the structure.

 

[growler]

My complaint that is I met the codified rules (2011 NEC) of the State of Ohio adopted by the Board of Building Standards. The State of Ohio says that it is ok so the POCO better have a damn could reason to deny me service. This is existing and I did nothing to change the demand at the structure.

The OP was not denied service, he was going to be charged for the hook-up of a 200 AMP service ( based on panel size, rating ). The extra cost calculated by POCO.

This is not existing, it's and upgraded service. I have to assume that since he was trying to get power connected for a 200 AMP service before he found out about the extra cost that he had proper permits and an inspection of a 200 AMP service. Once he learns of the extra charges he has offered to swap out the main breaker to 100 AMP.

Does the power company have to accept this change as being correct? I think that in each jurisdiction this may be handled differently. At the very least I can see them requiring a new permit ( or amended ) to show this was inspected as a 100 AMP service and that way if anything changes the records will show what is legally supposed to be there.

Unless this power company is located in Ohio I doubt if they care much about what Ohio has to say about it.

In my area there would not be an extra charge for a 200 AMP service, they really don't care ( they don't tend to max out the transformers ).

I have run into large service increases on commercial/industrial jobs and the amounts that POCO can charge for an up-grade in service and as far as I know the state doesn't get involved as this is a business matter.

I personally don't think it's right that his POCO wants to nail him for three grand for a transformer upgrade but if that's part of their SOP I doubt if there is much that can be done about it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

The OP was not denied service, he was going to be charged for the hook-up of a 200 AMP service ( based on panel size, rating ). The extra cost calculated by POCO.

This is not existing, it's and upgraded service. I have to assume that since he was trying to get power connected for a 200 AMP service before he found out about the extra cost that he had proper permits and an inspection of a 200 AMP service. Once he learns of the extra charges he has offered to swap out the main breaker to 100 AMP.

Does the power company have to accept this change as being correct? I think that in each jurisdiction this may be handled differently. At the very least I can see them requiring a new permit ( or amended ) to show this was inspected as a 100 AMP service and that way if anything changes the records will show what is legally supposed to be there.

Unless this power company is located in Ohio I doubt if they care much about what Ohio has to say about it.

In my area there would not be an extra charge for a 200 AMP service, they really don't care ( they don't tend to max out the transformers ).

I have run into large service increases on commercial/industrial jobs and the amounts that POCO can charge for an up-grade in service and as far as I know the state doesn't get involved as this is a business matter.

I personally don't think it's right that his POCO wants to nail him for three grand for a transformer upgrade but if that's part of their SOP I doubt if there is much that can be done about it.

It is not a 200AMP service. It is a 100AMP service.

As to Ohio I was asked what I would do.

If he is fighting with the POCO that much I'd install a 100 AMP disconnect outside and have them hook that up.

 

[growler]

As to Ohio I was asked what I would do.

The profile for the OP states that he is a contractor and if anyone should be familiar with all the local rules and problems it's a contractor. Better be glad he didn't have this problem with a customer.

He should also have given some idea of what area of the country we are dealing with.

 

[meternerd]

Well.....this turned into quite a furball. As a utility guy, I can only give you my perspective. If a panel is downstream of the meter main, we could care less. But if we're talking about "Service Equipment", then we have rules that apply, even if they differ from the NEC. Our objective is to supply reliable, safe power at a resonable price. Since we are basically a monopoly because we are the only utility supplying power in a particular area, we set the rules. A PUC seldom gets involved in local issues such as this. "Worse" yet, we are a Co-op. so PUC has no jurisdiction. We try to keep our rates as low as possible (we are non-profit) by trying to insure that we collect fair fees based on standards we set. If a customer tries to "cheat" the system by paying for one size service and then changes it without our knowledge, it not only is not fair to the rest of the members, it can play havoc with our load calculations for transformer connected load. That can lead to overheated and damaged transformers, power outages, etc. I know this probably grates on many of you, but that's just the way it is. Been a utility guy (now retired) for over 40 years and maybe I'm just used to doing it our way.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Well.....this turned into quite a furball. As a utility guy, I can only give you my perspective. If a panel is downstream of the meter main, we could care less. But if we're talking about "Service Equipment", then we have rules that apply, even if they differ from the NEC. Our objective is to supply reliable, safe power at a resonable price. Since we are basically a monopoly because we are the only utility supplying power in a particular area, we set the rules. A PUC seldom gets involved in local issues such as this. "Worse" yet, we are a Co-op. so PUC has no jurisdiction. We try to keep our rates as low as possible (we are non-profit) by trying to insure that we collect fair fees based on standards we set. If a customer tries to "cheat" the system by paying for one size service and then changes it without our knowledge, it not only is not fair to the rest of the members, it can play havoc with our load calculations for transformer connected load. That can lead to overheated and damaged transformers, power outages, etc. I know this probably grates on many of you, but that's just the way it is. Been a utility guy (now retired) for over 40 years and maybe I'm just used to doing it our way.

From your common sense view, reading your post, if he had a 100 AMP service and replaced it with a 100 AMP service what is the big deal?

If this was an overhead and he ran 4/0 from the weather head to the meter, in case some day he wanted to upgrade, would you refuse to connect his service?

 

[curt swartz]

Do they want NEC sized conductors/raceways or do they have their own specs? We install raceways for some POCO laterals around here but they pull their own conductors through them. They specify what size and number of raceways, and usually pull smaller conductors than what NEC would make contractors pull.

They have their own specs. For residential services 100-400 amps they require 1-3" conduit. They usually pull 4/0 AL for 200 amps and 350AL for 400 amps. For commercial services 400 amps and greater they require 5" conduits. The number of conduits depends on the size of the service. If they feel the load is going to be more than 400 amps or more they will pulls sets of 1000's.

The last 1200 amp service I did they required 4-5" conduits but only pulled in one set of 1000'. They left the other 3 conduits empty for future load. The last 600 amp service I did they required 2-5" conduits but only pulled one set of 4/0's and left the other conduit empty.

Anytime load is added to the service they are supposed to be notified so they can adjust their service conductors and transformer accordingly.

Anything over 2000 amps requires a direct buss connection to their transformer.

 

[meternerd]

From your common sense view, reading your post, if he had a 100 AMP service and replaced it with a 100 AMP service what is the big deal?

If this was an overhead and he ran 4/0 from the weather head to the meter, in case some day he wanted to upgrade, would you refuse to connect his service?

Of course we'd reconnect his service, but we'd upsize the service drop wires if necessary and charge him for the cost based on the panel rating. If he had a 100A service and decided to spend the extra money for a 200A panel, when we came to reconnect the new panel, we would not continue to consider it a 100A service, even if he had a 100A main. We would assume he'll eventually increase load. We call it "demand capability". Why else would he fork over the extra dough for a bigger panel and wire? That's assuming he asked for a disconnect. It's doubtful that everyone would be honest enough to tell the utility that they installed a bigger breaker knowing about the additional fees. We are responsible for all equipment and wire ahead of the weatherhead for overhead and ahead of the utility section for underground. Our transformer loading calcs are based on customer supplied load info, so any additional load we are unaware of can lead to low voltage complaints by other customers on that transformer, overheating and equipment damage or overloaded service drops. Seen it more than a few times. My personal philosophy is: Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

I guess meter/service guys like me are a little cynical when we see the extent some people are willing to go to to steal power or avoid facility charges. Especially in today's economy. Up here, marijuana grow houses are becoming more and more of a problem. Most steal power so the extra load doesn't show up on their bill. Search warrants for utility records are often used to identify suspected growers. Kinda like cops....don't trust anybody.

I know this is way off the OP subject, but this is just the way I see it, and I helped write the rules.