110.12

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wbalsam1 said:
That is too funny. I wonder if I've ever seen one of these "conduit loops" and didn't realize it...:confused: :grin:
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"It takes less time to do a thing right than to explain why you did it wrong". Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:grin:
 
wbalsam1 said:
That is too funny. I wonder if I've ever seen one of these "conduit loops" and didn't realize it...:confused: :grin:
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True story, we were finishing up a job for some small tenant spaces that another crew at our company had started, I was pushing a fishtape through some 3/4 emt, it kept going and going until BOINK! it hit me in the back of the head. Never did figure out whether the previous crew ( I was good friends with the foreman) did that as a joke or not.;)
 
mistermudd said:
I wish I could fail jobs using the "neat & workman like" rule. If it is that ugly there is always corrections that can be backed up with other code sections, but it is still ugly when all is said & done.
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I dont understand If you feel that the work doesnt stand up to 110.12 then make them fix it....What is this about it wont stand up in court? If something isnt right it is wrong...I feel that you should stand up for what you think should be done....If you feel that way Im sure other inspectors in your area do as well and would back you up.....There has to be a line somewhere and you are the one that draws it ....How sloppy would it have to get?
 
splinetto said:
What is this about it wont stand up in court? ..
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It can't stand up in court, you can not define what neat and workmen like is.

splinetto said:
If something isnt right it is wrong.
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What is 'right' when it comes neatness?

It's like asking what is the 'right' color to paint a home.

One persons idea of neat is another persons idea of a disaster. The purpose of the NEC is electrical safety not electrical beauty.


If there are safety issues then red tag them with real violations and make them fix it. If it is just sloppy work that is an issue for the person paying the bill.
 
iwire said:
It's like asking what is the 'right' color to paint a home.
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There are laws that cover this , the length of grass the use of clothes lines ,. and whether or not you can decorate for the birth of Christ or fly the American flag . .I have little doubt there is a court that would allow it to stand.
 
iwire said:
It can't stand up in court, you can not define what neat and workmen like is.



What is 'right' when it comes neatness?

It's like asking what is the 'right' color to paint a home.

One persons idea of neat is another persons idea of a disaster. The purpose of the NEC is electrical safety not electrical beauty.
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Maybe someone should take it to court....What EC would take it that far?...Of course a court would not know what sloppy work looks like...that is why you would have someone who is knowledgeable explain to them it is sloppy....You would not be able to hide behind that it is not enforceable and you would have to decide is it neat yes or no?

Edit fixed UBB Code
 
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but if it is as bad as it sounds any person could tell the difference.....Just because neat is hard to define does not mean there isnt a difference between neat and not neat....If everyone does sloppy work it wont ever look neat....Would someone please send in a proposal to take 110.12 out..
 
M. D. said:
There are laws that cover this , the length of grass the use of clothes lines ,. ....
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I don't want to be your neighbor. Who enforces the length of grass? The clothes line? A zoning official, no doubt. A government employee with all the benefits. Probably his own Gov. vehicle, too.
"Hey, Buddy, I'm writing you up on a 1043-A. Grass too long. While I was here, I noticed you've put that pesky clothes line up again. Gotta write you up on this again. This time the fine doubles. You know you're costing the government a lot of money with your calous disregard for rules, Buddy." :mad: Now MOW YOUR LAWN! :grin:
 
iwire said:
How would you find the right person?

Why would their opinion of neat be correct?
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Why would I (or the inspector)have to prove it to be neat.....I would think It would be up to the EC to prove there work wasnt sloppy and what EC out there would want to put there sloppy work out there for everyone to see with there name all over it......If they won or lost the case they would be forevever linked to sloppy work.....What EC would take that chance ? Not one I would bet. They would fix and and know what they can get away with next time...A Standard would be set...And instead of EC seeing how sloppy they can do it they will know what it has to look like before they call it in..
 
There are laws that cover this , the length of grass the use of clothes lines ,. and whether or not you can decorate for the birth of Christ or fly the American flag .
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And most of those are tossed out by the courts when a serious challenge is made.
In the case of 110.12, with the NEC style manual saying that the term is vague and possibly unenforceable, I would not expect any court to uphold a red tag based on neat and workman like. I am sure that there would be "real" violations that the inspector could cite.
 
Yeah ,.you might be right there Don, where there is smoke there is most likely a flame or heat hot enough to cause all the smoke ...


But this town sends out the grasstapo if your grass is too long... YIKES


http://www.richmondhill.ca/subpage.asp?pageid=pd_weed_control

What Happens If I See A Long Grass & Weed By-law Violation?
Contact staff in the Enforcement Section at (905) 771-0198. Upon receiving the complaints, the Town will send enforcement officers to measure the grass on the specified property before determining the validity of the complaint. If, at the time of the officer’s attendance at the property, the length of the grass and or weeds exceeds the 20 cm (8 inches) maximum height requirement, the officer will issue an order to cut the grass/weeds. The officer will reinspect the property for compliance after nine days. If the owner/occupant has not cut the grass to comply with the order, the officer will forward a work order to the Town’s Grass Cutting Contractor to have the property cut to comply with the by-law. All charges for the cutting and the administration of the by-law will be invoiced to the property owner.
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:grin: Hey lets call the grasstapo hot line and report long grass at 15 Elm Street :grin:
 
splinetto said:
but if it is as bad as it sounds any person could tell the difference.....Just because neat is hard to define does not mean there isnt a difference between neat and not neat....If everyone does sloppy work it wont ever look neat....Would someone please send in a proposal to take 110.12 out..
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I think 110.12 is one of the more important rules there is. Yes it is hard to define neat but we all know it when we see it. I have had inspectors tell me that they liked my work because it was neat.It made it easier for them to inspect and they worry a lot less about neat installations than they do about the ones that look ugly. True the electrons don't care if they are running through neatly laid out wiring or not but neatness shows a sense of craftsmanship and true involvment in the work. I agree with Cowboy that it is easier to do it right than try to explain why you didn't.
 
iaov said:
I think 110.12 is one of the more important rules there is.
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I have to gasp at that statement. There are some truly lifesaving rules in the NEC, the very core of it - overcurrent protection, establishing solid bonding paths to kill circuits if something goes wrong, GFCI protection, mechanical support rules, etc.

You honestly think 110.12 is one of the more important rules? :confused:

I have been failed for 110.12 before, and IMO the "repair" for the workmanship issue was prettier but compromised the quality of the house. Is pretty more important than drafty? :)

Edit to add: Bear in mind, I am talking about enforcement, not the goals of an electrician undertaking a project. I always strive for perfection, but am the first to admit that things don't always play out as well in the flesh as they do in planning.
 
iwire said:
To me that is just crazy.

Sloppy does not kill.
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Sloppy does kill. Thats why there are rules against it. I can't believe I' m seeing people on this forum defending slopppy workmanship. The term "hacks" certainly comes to mind.
 
I'm in a different end of the business than most of you. I do control systems with hundreds of wires running around in panels. But most of it is propreitary equipment and hence NOT inspected.

I think the penalty for sloppy work should be slow torture followed by death. Some of the Bird Nests I have to try and fix are outragous. Worst yet are those that don't number their wires properly.

Get me a tazor so when I find the installer of these messes I can let my feelings be known.:mad:
 
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