110v/220v question

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scanman

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I had a question on hot tub function. I ran 50 amp 220v feed to a hot tub. There were 2-110v and a ground required. In the function of this tub there were a couple of 220v pumps and a heater. There were a couple of 110v items like a blower/light/ozone unit etc. With not neutral to the tub, just a ground, how does the 110 volt functions operate? Is the ground utilized to make this happen? Everything is functioning fine and it is all GFI protected-just wondering.
 
TOOL_5150

TOOL_5150

Senior Member
Location
bay area, ca
Answers in RED


scanman said:
I had a question on hot tub function. I ran 50 amp 220v feed to a hot tub.

The proper terminology is 120/240v

There were 2-110v and a ground required. In the function of this tub there were a couple of 220v pumps and a heater. There were a couple of 110v items like a blower/light/ozone unit etc. With not neutral to the tub, just a ground, how does the 110 volt functions operate?

They dont - DO NOT use a ground as a neutral!!

Is the ground utilized to make this happen?

NO!


Everything is functioning fine and it is all GFI protected-just wondering.

Pull a 4 wire feed and do it right!
Click to expand...


~Matt
 
Sierrasparky

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Never seen one like that. Must have a trans for the light and controls. All the other stuf is 240v.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Scan, welcome to the forum! :)

Scan, the answer lies in the power connection. If it's a pair of 120v plugs, you definitely need a neutral or maybe two.

If the connection is hardwired, it depends one whether there are two or three circuit terminals, not counting the EGC.
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
some of the new tubs are now coming with the GFCI system built in the control panel, some of them are an electronic version with a current coil that all current carrying conductors are passed through, I was baffled with this when I saw instructions stating to not put the hot tub on a GFCI protected circuit. and I don't find anything in 680 that require the whole circuit to a hot tub to be GFCI protected, so I guess there good to go? see 680.44(A)
 
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scanman

Member
Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I am getting used to the
forum. I was just called in to replace the 50amp GFCI breaker at
the sub supplying the tub. I think SierraSparky answered my question
about the neutral- there must be a transformer at the tub control unit.
There is no bus or requirement for a neutral for this particular older
tub so no need to pull one.

Thanks,
Scanman
 
E

ericgold

Member
Out of curiosity, what kind of transformer would be used to go from 240volts to 120volts without there being a neutral present?
 
C

Chenley

Member
Location
Western KY
scanman said:
Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I am getting used to the
forum. I was just called in to replace the 50amp GFCI breaker at
the sub supplying the tub. I think SierraSparky answered my question
about the neutral- there must be a transformer at the tub control unit.
There is no bus or requirement for a neutral for this particular older
tub so no need to pull one.

Thanks,
Scanman
Click to expand...

I haven't installed many hot tubs, although this has me thinking of older ovens and dryers with only three-prong connections. Where the ground and neutral were tied together at the equipment. How is the breaker wired in with only a 3-wire connection? You would need two hots, neutral and ground for that breaker to operate correctly.

Once upon a time, I had troubleshot an older hot tub, where the two hots and neutral were utilized and the ground was tapped on all the metal parts of the hot tubs (pump, blower, etc.).

I don't know maybe I'm off, would need a line diagram of the equipment to see how it is supposed to be tied in. Need more coffee :grin:.
 
George Stolz

George Stolz

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
Occupation
Service Manager
TOOL_5150 said:
Sorry for the misunderstanding, its my fault for not reading close enough. :)
Click to expand...
I initially approved this post (Scanman being a new member), and I recall having a very similar moment - it took me a couple passes to understand what was being said (and two peeks at his profile) to get the full grasp of the post. Not to pick on you, but it's comforting to see someone else bounce off the walls for a minute. :)
 
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