12-2 NM cable as switch.

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Jim W in Tampa said:
I know that Roger.
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OK... if you say so :lol:



Jim W in Tampa said:
Was just using it an example to misuse of white.It's also a violation to use a white in a cable as a hot,that is unless your state removes it.
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That is just plain wrong. :p

The NEC allows the use of white in cable and cord assemblies.

The only thing that is different in MA is that the NEC requirement to re-identify the white when used as ungrounded conductor for a switch leg has been eliminated.

If you see a standard single pole switch with a white and black connected to it coming from a cable assembly are you telling us you would assume it was a grounded conductor?
 
Jim and Chicar, I'm going to expand on Infinity and Iwire's posts. :) :D

Note; all scenarios are cable assemblies in normal 120/240 volt single phase residential installations and the white conductor is not re-identified.

Also note that the answers do not not necessarily have to be code compliant, (more than one answer might work too :wink:) the questions are dealing with whether an electrician would need the white conductor re-identified to know what it is doing per the scenarios.

Scenario #1 (already covered in this thread) You open a box containing a single pole switch and find a white conductor and a black conductor from the same cable connected to the switch, an Electrician will know the white conductor is _______

(A) a hot conductor or switch leg
(B) an EGC
(C) a Grounded Conductor
(D) a High Leg

Scenario #2 You take a panel cover off and see a 2 conductor cable whose white conductor is connected to one pole of a multi-pole breaker and the black conductor of this cable is connected to the other pole, an Electrician will know this white conductor is being used for a _________

(A) Main Bonding Jumper
(B) GEC
(C) Grounded Conductor
(D) Hot Conductor

Scenario #3 You are trouble shooting a set of three-ways and see a white conductor connected to a terminal on the first switch you open, an Electrician would know this conductor would be a ________

(A) colored conductor that lost is pigment
(B) bleached and enriched wheat conductor
(C) skinny Caucasian guy
(D) traveler or hot conductor

Scenario #4 (already covered earlier in this thread) You open a light fixture box and find a 2 conductor cable whose white conductor is wire nutted to the blacks of the other cables in the box, the black conductor of this cable is connected to the fixture, an electrician would know this white conductor is________

(A) not a Bigot
(B) a Data Cable
(C) a hot conductor
(D) a piece of tie wire

Given the scenarios above, it is necessary to re-identify a white conductor used as a hot so that __________ will not be confused and spend the rest of the day scratching his/her head.

(A) an Electrician
(B) a fellow Electrician
(C) an Electrician working in FL
(D) a person that should not have their paws in these boxes in the first place.

IMO there is no reason for the requirement. :lol:

Roger
 
Are we now saying that nec just put it in for the non Ma. electricians.Nec seen a problem with cables and simply gave us an exception to reidentify a grounded conductor rather than make us waste a 12-3.Either we follow nec or we dont.Mine will be remarked,just simply the way i was taught.But as we all know some areas just cant leave things as written.They use ink to say you dont need to remark rather than simply use ink to do the job right
 
Jim,
Nec seen a problem with cables and simply gave us an exception to reidentify a grounded conductor rather than make us waste a 12-3.
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The code never required us to "waste" a 12-3. Prior to the 2002 code you used the white at the hot to the switch (without reidentification), and that black as the switch leg to the loads. Note the the reason for this change as stated in proposal 5-30 in the 2001 ROP was to protect the "weekend warriors". To panel members voted against the change with comments that said "if they don't know what they are doing, they shouldn't be doing it".
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
. . . Prior to the 2002 code you used the white at the hot to the switch (without reidentification), and that black as the switch leg to the loads. . . . Don
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Don:

For the benefit of us non-electricians, what was the logic behind using white as the always hot conductor to the switch and the black as the switched return? Does the code now permit either to be used as the hot to the switch?

Mike
 
Mike,
For the benefit of us non-electricians, what was the logic behind using white as the always hot conductor to the switch and the black as the switched return?
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The logic was to make sure that the black was the hot at the light fixture. This, in turn, makes sure that the socket screw shell is connected to the grounded conductor and is a a safety issue.
Does the code now permit either to be used as the hot to the switch?
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No.

Don
 
LarryFine said:
What we need is NM cable with two non-white colors, such as two blacks or a black and a red.
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Uhh, bad idea I would be cussing plenty when I went to rip down a house after I just pulled a couple thousand feet of black and red NM-B by accident!!!!!!

:idea: But wait, maybe they could make a code change, so I could reidentify the red to white. Then, we could have the same conversation about that! :lol: :p :roll:
 
jes25 said:
LarryFine said:
What we need is NM cable with two non-white colors, such as two blacks or a black and a red.
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Uhh, bad idea I would be cussing plenty when I went to rip down a house after I just pulled a couple thousand feet of black and red NM-B by accident!!!!!!

:idea: But wait, maybe they could make a code change, so I could reidentify the red to white. Then, we could have the same conversation about that! :lol: :p :roll:
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Just how much BLACK/RED do you use in average house ?Your now adding one more rolls of wire to carry.All you need is 1 Sharpie in your pocket.But if you live in MA. they will change the rules to what ever they like best. :D
 
I think that we should change the rules so that all conductors must be the same color(reidentification prohibited)...then you would have to have some idea of what you are doing to work on the system. :twisted:

Don
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
[.But if you live in MA. they will change the rules to what ever they like best. :D
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Jim try as you might but you will never be able to bring MA down to the level of nonsense you have there in Florida. It just will not happen.
If an electrican needs to see a white wire reidentified or they can't figure out what they are doing they deserve to get whacked when it turns out to be hot.
 
JimW
You should not take things so personnally here.


Roger
Are you starting a new career writing tests? It is not a bad career move, Prometric is a billion dollar company... if you need help give me a call. :wink:
 
Hello Pierre,

pierre said:
Roger
Are you starting a new career writing tests? It is not a bad career move, Prometric is a billion dollar company... if you need help give me a call. :wink:
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I don't know, there may be some who would think my questions are to difficult or are meant to trick those taking the tests :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for the offer to help, I will call you if I decide to pursue the career change. :wink:


Roger
 
Hold on a second here guys. I think Jim is on to something. We should keep dumbing down the NEC so it's more understandable to the next generation of students coming out of American public schools. That way, when they decide to become electricians, their self esteem won't be damaged because they can't understand a technical document.

:D
 
I would never make an electrician in MA,i would try and do something stupid like follow nec.Also not likely i would ever be there as anything under 50 is freezing to me.For what its worth i cheated today and used my blue sharpie when i couldnt find my red one.If you guys think you will stop a home owner from touching the wiring job think again.While any half a$$ electrician will figure everything out even if all you run are white wires ,you could make it look like your a profeshional and mark it,that is unless a $1 sharpie or 5 seconds is too high of a price.If your on one of my jobs you either remark or i send you back to the shop.But this has exsplained the stupid look on one of our guys faces when i told him to do this.Any guesses where he was from ?But its ok he now knows why
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
you could make it look like your a profeshional .
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Uhhh, okay then. How could anyone argue with that?
laughing-smiley-014.gif


Roger
 
What ever happened to wiring the switch the right way? Cable to switch,cable from switch to light. Then you won,t have to mark nothing. The wiring you purchased will [shall] not need any aditional markings. :D
 
chicar said:
What ever happened to wiring the switch the right way? Cable to switch,cable from switch to light. Then you won,t have to mark nothing. The wiring you purchased will [shall] not need any aditional markings. :D
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Who says thats the right way ? Will admit in housewiring it is the normal.
 
Jim, once again you've missed the point entirely. This has nothing to do with being "profeshional" or Massachusetts making "renegade rules" as you seem to think they are.

As Roger and others have stated, if an electrician can't figure out what a white wire does by observation, then he has no business being in the trade, and the NEC has no business making rules for people outside of the trade.
 
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