12-2 NM cable as switch.

[Gmack]

Peter d/ Georgestolz

Peter d/ Georgestolz

Peter, I appreciate you comments on Roger. I don't know him except for his lampooning others views and practices. And he has a dislike for DIYers. At least here. I stand by my comments on training and saftey.

I think it worth mentioning here that an apprentice or journeyman could encounter a ganged installation where the electrician ran mc or ac with black and white wires with 277/480 potential. Adjacent switches without barriers. But at first glance they might mistake it for a 120v setup. This is a dangerous installation. The electrician should have marked the whites with 480 color phase tape for saftey reasons alone. I dont need a code book to tell me that.

George, in my opinion, green apprentices have no business challenging journeyman, masters or contractors. Ive seen these types. And we weed them out of the trade for saftey reasons. One such individual boasted proudly that he "catches masters making mistakes". How does he do this?
He spent to much time walking around the job "inspecting" others work in an attempt to "bust them". He later fell headlong to the floor off his manlift because he forgot to hook the chain. Luckily he wasnt hurt. He no longer is an electrical apprentice. Another fresh apprentice challenged me one day and "declared" "amps kill not voltage" . I think you get my point. Thank you for the welcome.

 

[peter d]

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

.Another fresh apprentice challenged me one day and "declared" "amps kill not voltage" . I think you get my point. Thank you for the welcome.

I hate to break this to you, but he is 100% correct.

 

[Gmack]

Peter

Peter

What do all the warning signs read Peter? Very dangerous training indeed.

Amps?

High Voltage?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

George, in my opinion, green apprentices have no business challenging journeyman, masters or contractors.

If your interpretation of a code, or view of a practice are correct, then it should bear the test of scrutiny. There is a difference between a guy wandering around a job "inspecting instead of working" (yes, I do 100% agree with your view on that activity) and a person on a website challenging your opinion of a topic (which encourages discussion, education and flow of ideas).

Another fresh apprentice challenged me one day and "declared" "amps kill not voltage" . I think you get my point.

No, I do not get your point. There are different hazards with higher voltage, but more electricians are killed every year by 120V than any other voltage. In the case of 120V shocks, it is indeed the current that kills people, given the lack of an arc blast.

The idea that someone has been around long enough that their views are unchallengeable is the exact roadblock to knowledge that this site exists to combat. How long must a person practice to become perfect? There have been many long-time electricians to visit this place to have some of their deep held beliefs destroyed by the truth and their open minds to receive it.

I hope you have an open mind.

 

[peter d]

Re: Peter

Re: Peter

What do all the warning signs read Peter? Very dangerous training indeed.

Amps?

High Voltage?

I didn't realize a warning sign was the source of basic electrical theory. I guess all my textbooks, former instructors, and numerous members of this forum are wrong then. :roll:

In 41 years in the trade, you have not realized that current is what stops your heart? Yes, higher voltage will indeed be able to force more current through a human body. Do you know how a GFCI works? It open the circuit with a CURRENT imbalance.

 

[peter d]

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

I think it worth mentioning here that an apprentice or journeyman could encounter a ganged installation where the electrician ran mc or ac with black and white wires with 277/480 potential. Adjacent switches without barriers. But at first glance they might mistake it for a 120v setup. This is a dangerous installation. The electrician should have marked the whites with 480 color phase tape for saftey reasons alone. I dont need a code book to tell me that.

The electrician should be using his tester to tell him what the voltage is, not the insulation color. Any electrician who assumes a voltage based on insulation or phase markings without testing it first is asking to get himself killed or injured.

 

[sparky_magoo]

Re: Actually

Re: Actually

Larry,
If every conductor of every cable had been disconnected, there's only one solution: The extension cord and wiggy. Test for the supplying cable by looking for a grounded white with one wiggy test lead in the hot slot of the cord. There should be only one grounded white; it's black is the hot feed in from the source.

Instead of rolling out an extension cord, I the white wire with continuity to ground. :wink:

 

[iwire]

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

George, in my opinion, green apprentices have no business challenging journeyman, masters or contractors.

That is a horrible attitude.

If you think you know it all at this point it will benefit us all if you now retire and let the new guys step up to the plate.

Ive seen these types. And we weed them out of the trade for safety reasons. One such individual boasted proudly that he "catches masters making mistakes".

Yeah that sure is unsafe. :roll:

We would not want anyone with 40 years in the trade suffer the pain of embarrassment when their mistakes are brought to light buy an apprentice. :evil:

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

Re: Peter d/ Georgestolz

Peter, I appreciate you comments on Roger. I don't know him except for his lampooning others views and practices. And he has a dislike for DIYers. At least here. I stand by my comments on training and saftey.

Life's too short not to laugh.

I think it worth mentioning here that an apprentice or journeyman could encounter a ganged installation where the electrician ran mc or ac with black and white wires with 277/480 potential. Adjacent switches without barriers. But at first glance they might mistake it for a 120v setup. This is a dangerous installation. The electrician should have marked the whites with 480 color phase tape for saftey reasons alone. I dont need a code book to tell me that.



A good electrician will assume nothing. He should teach that to apprentices.

George, in my opinion, green apprentices have no business challenging journeyman, masters or contractors. Ive seen these types. And we weed them out of the trade for saftey reasons. One such individual boasted proudly that he "catches masters making mistakes". How does he do this?
He spent to much time walking around the job "inspecting" others work in an attempt to "bust them". He later fell headlong to the floor off his manlift because he forgot to hook the chain. Luckily he wasnt hurt. He no longer is an electrical apprentice. Another fresh apprentice challenged me one day and "declared" "amps kill not voltage" . I think you get my point. Thank you for the welcome.

Just how many years does someone have to have to question a JM, MSTR or EC?
It sounds as though you're talking about a smart aleck person which is different from someone (such as George) honestly questioning why we do things when I was taught something different in school.

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when open.

 

[iwire]

The company where I work now has a policy of pulling 3-wire to all dead-end 1P switches.

I believe that there is a proposal for the 2008 code that would require this if the proposal is accepted.
Don

Don

Any chance that proposal was from copper or cable suppliers? :roll:

 

[sandsnow]

I believe that there is a proposal for the 2008 code that would require this if the proposal is accepted.
Don

I'm curious as to the substantiation for that one. I can't think of a hazard that would result from not doing it.
Well other than a DIYer tapping in receptacle and using the EGC as a current carrying conductor.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Bob,

Any chance that proposal was from copper or cable suppliers?

That type of thing never happens in the NEC :twisted:

Don

 

[Gmack]

Re Iwire

Re Iwire

George, in my opinion, green apprentices have no business challenging journeyman, masters or contractors.

That is a horrible attitude.

If you think you know it all at this point it will benefit us all if you now retire and let the new guys step up to the plate.

Ive seen these types. And we weed them out of the trade for safety reasons. One such individual boasted proudly that he "catches masters making mistakes".

Yeah that sure is unsafe. :roll:

We would not want anyone with 40 years in the trade suffer the pain of embarrassment when their mistakes are brought to light buy an apprentice. :evil:

My attitude is not "horrible". Its responsible. If you have ever had to supervise men and be responsible for their safety on a large construction site then you would understand that this particular apprentice had the "horrible attitude". It could have and nearly did cause him serious injury or worse. He was focused on showing everyone that he was "as smart as a master". BTW, it was not me. He wandered into other areas by his own admission. Why did he take a dive off his lift? It was determined that he had other things on his mind, not his job. If an individual like him is left to himself to spend his time "challenging" then he becomes and is a safety potential to himself and others. Fact. Now and down the road. Responsibilty is to the other men by removing such an individual. You got it backwards.

 

[Gmack]

Assume

Assume

Peter, I appreciate you comments on Roger. I don't know him except for his lampooning others views and practices. And he has a dislike for DIYers. At least here. I stand by my comments on training and saftey.

Life's too short not to laugh.

I think it worth mentioning here that an apprentice or journeyman could encounter a ganged installation where the electrician ran mc or ac with black and white wires with 277/480 potential. Adjacent switches without barriers. But at first glance they might mistake it for a 120v setup. This is a dangerous installation. The electrician should have marked the whites with 480 color phase tape for saftey reasons alone. I dont need a code book to tell me that.



A good electrician will assume nothing. He should teach that to apprentices.

George, in my opinion, green apprentices have no business challenging journeyman, masters or contractors. Ive seen these types. And we weed them out of the trade for saftey reasons. One such individual boasted proudly that he "catches masters making mistakes". How does he do this?
He spent to much time walking around the job "inspecting" others work in an attempt to "bust them". He later fell headlong to the floor off his manlift because he forgot to hook the chain. Luckily he wasnt hurt. He no longer is an electrical apprentice. Another fresh apprentice challenged me one day and "declared" "amps kill not voltage" . I think you get my point. Thank you for the welcome.

Just how many years does someone have to have to question a JM, MSTR or EC?
It sounds as though you're talking about a smart aleck person which is different from someone (such as George) honestly questioning why we do things when I was taught something different in school.

Minds are like parachutes, they only work when open.

An electrician WILL ASSUME ITS HOT!

 

[iwire]

Re: Re Iwire

Re: Re Iwire

If you have ever had to supervise men and be responsible for their safety on a large construction site then you would understand

:lol:

Yeah maybe someday I will be on a big job.

You had said

George, in my opinion, green apprentices have no business challenging journeyman, masters or contractors.

That is not directed at one 'particular apprentice'.

Can you explain why a green apprentice should not ask questions?

The last thing I am interested in doing is 'weeding out' the new hires that care enough to ask questions.

 

[iwire]

Re: Having Doughts Roger

Re: Having Doughts Roger

BTW, You have a Potty Mouth.

:lol:

 

[roger]

Gmack, you're floundering. :lol:

You seem to be intimidated by those with less time in the trade than yourself. A word of advice, get over it. :wink:

There are two members here (maybe even more) in their twenty's that are instructors and inspectors who excel in their knowledge of the code as well as theory, they could even teach you a thing or more if you were not close minded to their instruction or advice.

Hey, come to think of it, I won't tell you who they are so that if you stick around you might think they are old farts (older than 50) and be able to benefit from their posts. :lol:

Now, I would bet that Iwire supervises more people on "large" projects than you are aware of.

As far as having 480 between switches in a box with no separation or barriers, (from your earlier post) then we would have a bigger (IMO) violation than a conductor not being re-identified.

Read 404.8(B) and then you may want to read the definition of "Qualified Person" so you will know who should be working on these installations.

I'm just trying to help you, so don't be mad. :

Peter and George, thanks for the kind words and support, and know there is mutual respect from me

Roger

 

[Gmack]

Iwire

Iwire

Electricians are intelligent, we have to be. In my area I have an excellent rep for taking time to explain codes and methods to apprentices and to "preach" about safety issues.

Now, having said that. Take that intelligent electrician mind of yours and see that,

Im talking about bad apprentices that "challenge" in the manner that I posted.

Not apprentices who show keen intellect for knowledge and ask questions.

Apprentices who spend their day measuring a journeymans/masters supports from the box only to "expose them" are not asking questions or doing the other men justice who are working.

George made it a point to tell me that he and "green apprentices" are equal here to journeyman/masters and contractors and guys with 40 years experience. I disagree.

 

[pierre]

Bob
It is nice to see you back after your short stay at some swank hotel soaking up the sun and drinking margaritas...... :lol:

Gmack
Since you are new here, I think you may need to try and understand the people who post here. Some have been here awhile (I am new here too ) and they get a little "testy" as there have been some real winners (newbies, sort of like apprentices) who post trying to show all how bright they are. Once you get used to these guys it is like going to the dentist - you get used to it and you will feel better because you can eat again. :wink:
There are so many types of people here, that most posts are a real learning experience. Once you get used to the fact that maybe some of the facts you have learned and used in the past are maybe not so correct, then you will get hooked.

A member who has passed away, Benny did that for a lot of us, that is how I got hooked.
Welcome, good luck and listen, post and discuss, but there is no need to argue, it is not worth it.

P.S. We are not saying you have to agree, just do not get so defensive. Sometimes it is hard to put in words to make a picture for the forum to see the same picture that you see... that is always fun. I have had my disagreements with some here, we have all gotten over them... I cannot wait till the next one.

 

[iwire]

Bob
It is nice to see you back after your short stay at some swank hotel soaking up the sun and drinking margaritas...... :lol:

No sun or margaritas, all work.

I don't see it changing right through summer.

Not complaining, you have got to make hay while the sun shines. 8)