12-2 NM cable as switch.

[electricmanscott]

Gmac you certainly know how to get attention. :lol:

You new apprentice is here. Hope you made it to Miller time ok. :roll: Looks like he did.

I hope this one isn't too green. 8)

 

[electricmanscott]

you could make it look like your a profeshional and mark it

This might be the funniest thing I have read on this forum...ever. The rest of the post was great as well but this is the best. New rule, no posting after Miller Time. :lol:

The kicker is spell check does not pick it up. :?

 

[al hildenbrand]

Pierre,

Your summary in your last post is exquisite. Especially:

There are so many types of people here, that most posts are a real learning experience. Once you get used to the fact that maybe some of the facts you have learned and used in the past are maybe not so correct, then you will get hooked.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Iwire

Re: Iwire

George made it a point to tell me that he and "green apprentices" are equal here to journeyman/masters and contractors and guys with 40 years experience. I disagree.

Did I? I made no such statement. I harbor no such belief.

Dont presume to lecture me "sonny" . Im going on 41 years in the trade.

Don't presume that due to 41 years experience, the greenest apprentice on this forum will not step forward to question a statement. Tenure has no bearing on the respect given on this forum.

Experience is an indicator of knowledge, not proof of it. As time goes by, you will either prove your knowledge or display a lack of it. Hopefully, should you make a mistake, your thirst for truth will provide you with the strength to swallow your pride and examine it anew.

My signature is what it is for the simple reason that I do not want people trusting what I say. I want my statements scrutinized, challenged, and I expect to be called to task when I err. The good members here make a point to do so, and I become educated for the experience.

Im talking about bad apprentices that "challenge" in the manner that I posted.

Not apprentices who show keen intellect for knowledge and ask questions.

Apprentices who spend their day measuring a journeymans/masters supports from the box only to "expose them" are not asking questions or doing the other men justice who are working.

That's fine, but this part of the discussion began with a very bad move on your part. Do not use your experience as a weapon. It's juvenile. You assume that the person you're calling "Sonny" isn't a UL listing expert, a Hazardous Locations guru, a walking code database, a heckuva smart guy, and probably an old duffer in his own right.

The problem with the apprentice was not that he challenged you. The problem was that he was not doing his job - he wasn't focused on his own work. There's plenty of time for him to challenge you at lunch, or after work. There's no reason to interrupt productivity for what he did. His hard-on for lifting himself up by pushing others down occupied his every thought.

I've known people like that, which is why I completely agree with your opinion of those people.

 

[sandsnow]

Re: Iwire

Re: Iwire

George made it a point to tell me that he and "green apprentices" are equal here to journeyman/masters and contractors and guys with 40 years experience. I disagree.

Did I? I made no such statement. I harbor no such belief.

Actually I think everyone is equal here. It's a forum of ideas and a place to gain and pass on knoweldge.

Maybe I'm thinking more like everyone has a right to participate. And they shoudn't be talked down to because they don't have mega years in the trade.

 

[sparky_magoo]

I have expressed my beliefs and opinions on this forum many times. I have been wrong frequently and corrected by members here. I am grateful for all of the help I have received here. I am a better electrician because this place. People at all skill levels have much to learn from this forum.

 

[peter d]

Another fresh apprentice challenged me one day and "declared" "amps kill not voltage" .

So Gmack, is there any chance you'll admit to the members of the forum that the apprentice who challenged you is actually correct?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

It is the amps that kill. A 9 volt battery can kill if conditions are right.

 

[allenwayne]

I would like to hear just one person that was not GREEN at one point or another.New guys that don`t have opinions or that don`t ask questions and that don`t think that the thought they have either correct or not is what scares me.All to many so called journeymen refuse to teach or let loose of what knowledge they have are IMHO just fearfull that that new up and coming newbie will upstage them and take thier job.I have trained 100`s of now good electricians.We all learn something new in this trade each and every day we are out there.Sure some of us OLD FARTS are set in our ways but we do have allot of knowledge to bestow on the new guys that are willing to learn what we have to offer.

 

[pierre]

Thanks Al!

 

[busman]

Re: Actually

Re: Actually

Larry, we have all had to get down on a knee and shine a light into a multi gang and stare thru a nest to trace wires into the same sheath.

I agree, but try this in a 2-gang box fed with 4 BX cables with 2 KO's and duplex BX connectors. You can't see the sheathing. With one 2-wire and one 3-wire, who can tell which white is which. Of course the HO had been there first so no clues. Reidentifying the white sure would have helped in this case. I ended up removing a little drywall to get to the bottom of it.

Mark

 

[JohnE]

I love it when an apprentice questions an installation, as long as it's with the right intentions. It shows he wants to learn and/or cares about the installation.

 

[Gmack]

What A Crock Peter d Amps

What A Crock Peter d Amps

What a crock. For you even to ask such a stupid question. Let alone embrace it and try to raise it to a relevant matter. Talk about juvenile! You obviously don't have a clue. You would never work for me and I certainly wouldn't want you around any apprentices teaching them that crap espoused in your question. I don't know what think you are trying to prove here in this forum but it is dangerous and reckless and just plain stupid. No other way to put it. How many apprentices have you mucked up? God help them. Regardless of your "trade", whatever that is, you don't belong teaching your bookworm crap to any future apprentices. If I caught you "dumbing down" any apprentices with your dangerous
"wisdom". Id fire you on the spot if it were my job you were on. Someone other than me should call you out on this. Some veteran electricians who know better You need help. "Teachers" like you will get someone severely injured or killed. I cannot convey the scathing contempt I have for your stupid, irresponsible behavior. I could lecture you with real world experience but I think your beyond any hope. I said it before. Very dangerous. I bet you never crawled into high voltage switchgear to clean it, let alone shut it down, grounded out the busbars and made it safe for a apprentice to enter. Your bookworm knowledge on amps doesn't matter in there.

For any apprentice within earshot, beware of and pay attention of all voltage potential and treat it with respect, but from 277/480 and up it gets extremely more dangerous and life threating. If you get hit with it or hung up on it, you wont give a damn about amps or have anytime to think about what you learned in class from someone who explained electrical theory instead of warning you about higher voltages.

Damn irresponsible. 9v battery. Sheeess!

 

[peter d]

Re: What A Crock Peter d Amps

Re: What A Crock Peter d Amps

What a crock. For you even to ask such a stupid question. Let alone embrace it and try to raise it to a relevant matter. Talk about juvenile! You obviously don't have a clue. You would never work for me and I certainly wouldn't want you around any apprentices teaching them that crap espoused in your question. I don't know what think you are trying to prove here in this forum but it is dangerous and reckless and just plain stupid. No other way to put it. How many apprentices have you mucked up? God help them. Regardless of your "trade", whatever that is, you don't belong teaching your bookworm crap to any future apprentices. If I caught you "dumbing down" any apprentices with your dangerous
"wisdom". Id fire you on the spot if it were my job you were on. Someone other than me should call you out on this. Some veteran electricians who know better You need help. "Teachers" like you will get someone severely injured or killed. I cannot convey the scathing contempt I have for your stupid, irresponsible behavior. I could lecture you with real world experience but I think your beyond any hope. I said it before. Very dangerous. I bet you never crawled into high voltage switchgear to clean it, let alone shut it down, grounded out the busbars and made it safe for a apprentice to enter. Your bookworm knowledge on amps doesn't matter in there.

For any apprentice within earshot, beware of and pay attention of all voltage potential and treat it with respect, but from 277/480 and up it gets extremely more dangerous and life threating. If you get hit with it or hung up on it, you wont give a damn about amps or have anytime to think about what you learned in class from someone who explained electrical theory instead of warning you about higher voltages.

Damn irresponsible. 9v battery. Sheeess!

Are you talking to any of us, Gmack? How about addressing us directly? Don't worry, we can take the heat. We can all stand up to your ignorance on our own.

You were challenged on a piece of basic knowlege, and you lost. Instead of conceding defeat and saying that you learned something, you dig in deeper and grow deeper in your ignorance.

I will say it again, it is not voltage, it is CURRENT that stops th heart from beating. Higher voltage will force MORE CURRENT throught the heart much faster, and that is why higher voltage is more dangerous. But it is still the CURRENT that kills you. And in the case of accidental contact with higher voltage, the arc blast will cause life threatening injuries as well.

 

[peter d]

Gmack, do you know how a GFCI works? I asked you before and you didn't answer. Is it because you know the answer will condemn you, or you just don't know?

 

[al hildenbrand]

:shock: gmack. . .

[Flame OFF. . .]

What's the difference to a person, between a 5,000 volt static spark off the carpet and leather shoes? And a 20 thousandth of an amp thru heart current?

Life and Death.

[/Flame ON. . .]

 

[peter d]

Gmack, can you actually quote anything in this thread where someone suggested that high voltage is not dangerous?

In this case, you can't see the forest for the trees. No one is saying that high voltage is not dangerous. It IS dangerous. But it is still the CURRENT that kills you.

 

[busman]

Actually, it is the amps that determine the effect on the heart, but it is not true that more amps kills. Currents in the range of 20-40 milliamps could be considered the most dangerous because they tend to convert the heart into unstable rhythms. These unstable rhythms (fibrillation) will continue after current is removed until converted by medical personnel. Higher current levels tend to stop the heart and it will likely restart after the current is removed. Higher current levels affect more than just the heart and can cause significant tissue heating, including damage to internal organs. The bottom line is that current determines the damage, but in SOME cases more current for a short period can have a better outcome than lower currents. By this, I do NOT mean to imply that higher voltages/currents are safe. All current is dangerous depending on a large number of factors and shock should be treated as the serious hazard that it is - at all times/voltages/conditions.

 

[Gmack]

Peter

Peter

And to someone else who asked who I was talking to. With so many flames headed my way I cant/don't want to respond to each.

Peter, I've heard this amp vs voltage thing ever since the apprentice schools opened. Tell me why apprentices are taught this doctrine?
Of what relevance is it? Does it not negate the fact that the higher up the voltage scale we go the more dangerous it gets. That severe burns and if a man survives that, amputations, disability for life etc. This is a fact of our business. All as a result of "high voltage". You or someone keeps referring to heart stoppage. Thats medical jargon and you have based everything on that.

Well Im not talking about heart stoppage. Electricians including myself have been shocked, poked, bit, hung up [120v] [277v between neutrals]
etc, more times than we can remember. I personally have had "current" thru my heart more than once. So have many more electricians. We are all still here. So be careful on the "facts" that you use.

There are worse ways to die than a heart stoppage. There is a sure guaranteed way by any electrician who makes a fatal mistake on 480 and above. And it is much more violent to the body than the lower voltages. I don't care how many amps/current is involved. Why does that matter to anyone? If you want to teach medical jargon, then I believe your doing a disservice.

Why is that important to me. Because I've seen the utter disregard of modern/schooled apprentices who don't have the vagest care/respect in the world about "high voltage". Truth is they don't show much respect for 120/208 either. Why?

It is my opinion, because of this "amp kills" doctrine. Many times I held
meetings on the jobsite to STRESS the dangers of 277/480 over 120/208.
There is a difference. And its all about voltage. Someone, maybe you commented casually," well there some additional hazards with high voltage" or something like that. Well Im here to tell you there are "majior differences" Life threating forever differences".

How do I know? Maybe Ill tell you after the next volley of flames.

Thats what I want apprentice schools to teach.Thats my side of this debate.

 

[peter d]

GMack, no one is going to disagree with you about voltage levels. That is not what this argument is about. I repeat, absolutely no one here is saying that any voltage is "safer" than another.