12/3 homeruns

[ultramegabob]

No you cant parallel 12awg conductors, too small.

they wouldnt be parrelled if they are only tied at the panel, the other ends will be going to seperate loads.

 

[mivey]

they wouldnt be parrelled if they are only tied at the panel, the other ends will be going to seperate loads.

Got a picture? I missed something.

 

[ultramegabob]

Got a picture? I missed something.

I dont have any pictures, but parrelled conductors are paired up and tied togther at both ends to double up the ampacity, what I am suggesting is just tieing the two conductors together in the panel and they will "Y" off to seperate loads, its no differnt than terminating the wires in a junction box as Pierre pointed out earlier, I just figgured it would be easier to do at the panel and not have to climb around in an attic or crawlspace to tie them together.

Edit- an example would be running 12-3 to a ceiling fan to operate the fan seperate from the lights but fed from the same circuit.

 

[mivey]

I dont have any pictures, but parrelled conductors are paired up and tied togther at both ends to double up the ampacity, what I am suggesting is just tieing the two conductors together in the panel and they will "Y" off to seperate loads, its no differnt than terminating the wires in a junction box as Pierre pointed out earlier, I just figgured it would be easier to do at the panel and not have to climb around in an attic or crawlspace to tie them together.

Edit- an example would be running 12-3 to a ceiling fan to operate the fan seperate from the lights but fed from the same circuit.

I see.

But wouldn't you think the circuit has been sized for the load? Won't you now overload the breaker?

I guess with #12 we might have some breathing room, but if this was one of those #14 hack jobs...:grin:

 

[bobsherwood]

Some one help me please.. I guess I do not understand. 12-3 nm or what ever... black, red, white.... For the AFCI you want a hot, neutral and ground.. right?? Strip the red conductor at panel board and at first outlet.. Black, white, bare.... What am I doing wrong?? I must be missing something? I've never installed AFCI... have not touched residential in years...

 

[mivey]

Some one help me please.. I guess I do not understand. 12-3 nm or what ever... black, red, white.... For the AFCI you want a hot, neutral and ground.. right?? Strip the red conductor at panel board and at first outlet.. Black, white, bare.... What am I doing wrong?? I must be missing something? I've never installed AFCI... have not touched residential in years...

I'm thinking the homeruns are 12-3 w/G, but the loads are calculated to need 2 breakers. Eliminating one wire might cause a calculated overload.

 

[ultramegabob]

I see.

But wouldn't you think the circuit has been sized for the load? Won't you now overload the breaker?

I touched on that on post #9, its just a suggestion to save some labor and material where he can, I may work for a few of the runs, it may not work for any of them, it just depends on how they divided up the loads. If they ran one bedroom off the black and another off the red, you could probly tie them together without any problems.

 

[crazyboy]

Some one help me please.. I guess I do not understand. 12-3 nm or what ever... black, red, white.... For the AFCI you want a hot, neutral and ground.. right?? Strip the red conductor at panel board and at first outlet.. Black, white, bare.... What am I doing wrong?? I must be missing something? I've never installed AFCI... have not touched residential in years...

12-3 has three conductors plus Ground. So that's Black, Red, White, and bare. In this case the Black and Red are being used to feed separate circuits, sharing the neutral. Thus a MWBC. Under '08 NEC most circuits require an AFCI breaker, which won't work with a shared neutral.

 

[mivey]

I touched on that on post #9, its just a suggestion to save some labor and material where he can, I may work for a few of the runs, it may not work for any of them, it just depends on how they divided up the loads. If they ran one bedroom off the black and another off the red, you could probably tie them together without any problems.

I see you did mention it and, like you said, maybe it would work for a few select circuits.

I would think it poor design to have all of the circuits calculated at 1/2 load capacity in a house.

I see some additional home runs in somebody's future if they don't find some 2-pole AFCIs.

 

[mikeames]

I get the picture now...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I will tell you that Homeline did not make a DP arc fault and I would bet they don't make a DP combo arc fault.

Can you run new homeruns to the other circuits?

 

[iwire]

I would think it poor design to have all of the circuits calculated at 1/2 load capacity in a house.

People calculate loads in a dwelling unit?

News to me.:grin:

 

[hillbilly1]

People calculate loads in a dwelling unit?

News to me.:grin:

I agree:grin:

You could put every bedroom in the house on one circuit, and still be within code. I have not figured out what the problem is, use the 12-3 as a 12-2, unless the other circuit is feeding countertop receptacles, laundry circuit, or like loads, that one circuit can feed more than just bedrooms.

 

[mivey]

People calculate loads in a dwelling unit?

News to me.:grin:

You still putting in those 60 amp panels?:grin:

 

[hillbilly]

depending on how much load you have on a circuit, couldnt you just tie both the black and red together on one breaker? if its a homeline panel, you could just double land them on the breaker to tie them together.

That's a solution, depending on load.

steve

 

[Sierrasparky]

Gee look at the problems 1 idiot inexperienced hack causes, Look at all the time spent by others to fix his mess.

 

[A.B.C.E]

Gee look at the problems 1 idiot inexperienced hack causes, Look at all the time spent by others to fix his mess.


That is the problem there , someone who had no idea of what was going on and now the clean up starts. We are going to change out the panel to a siemensand have to go with a 2-pole arc-fault, even the state inspector agreed at least we have him on our side.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Gee look at the problems 1 idiot inexperienced hack causes, Look at all the time spent by others to fix his mess.


That is the problem there , someone who had no idea of what was going on and now the clean up starts. We are going to change out the panel to a siemensand have to go with a 2-pole arc-fault, even the state inspector agreed at least we have him on our side.

I wonder if the inspectors should start checking 3 wire circuits and ask the EC If they plan to use AFCI's. OR just put a note on the inspection card. " AFCI's reguired even for Multiwire circuits"

 

[msimms]

I'm new to this type of application, so please bare with me. (sounds like the gentlemen already decided which route to take).

I found this article that square d put together on AFCIs. i tend to agree with it, since if the use of a 2-pole AFCI is done, it will lead to a shared neutral, and then you have a situation where both circuits (one in either room) can be interrupted (sort of like lack of coordination you see in distribution), along with other issues related to over and under voltage.

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ci...ircuit Interrupters (AFCI)/0760DB0203R902.pdf

To me, it just seems like the simplest thing to do is spare out the conductor. yeah, its a waste of cooper, but you know you can still utilize the same panel and afci single pole breaker layout you already have, and avoid any issues, that are explained in the article, not to mention, not having to repull a 12-2w/ gnd.

just my thoughts. comments to the my post are appreciated.

 

[John Valdes]

depending on how much load you have on a circuit, couldnt you just tie both the black and red together on one breaker? if its a homeline panel, you could just double land them on the breaker to tie them together.

I thought the conductors had to be at least a 1/0 to parallel them?

Ps......Sorry I did not read the whole thread.