12 lead wye start/delta run motor

[Jraef]

... Most probably the application is in fire pump.[/FONT]

Let's not keep going on with red herrings here. That statement was non-sequitur from the outset because the OP said nothing about fire pumps and your subsequent statement about them only being UL listed for fire pumps is just false. I have used countless large 12 lead motors in industry for all kinds of applications; refrigeration compressors, rock crushers, airt compressors, conveyors, all kinds of pumps, you name it.

I personally abhor Wye-Delta starting because it generally causes more problems than it solves and whenever I come across them I replace them with Solid State Soft Starters if I can. Yet despite by feelings about them, they are the RV starter of choice for a LOT of OEMs simply because the starter is slightly cheaper than solid state and the OEM doesn't have to live with the long term consequences. But to say they are not used here is a ridiculous concept, as is their only having one use. So let that drop.

 

[Besoeker]

Agreed - before electronic soft starters' cost came down to make them go mainstream, Y-D was the common choice for reduced voltage starting regardless of application.

And I agree too.
The last application I recall was for a 225kW sump pump in a dockyard. A Y-D starter could have done the job but a soft starter was our choice. mainly favoured because of installation costs. One 3-core SWA cable instead of two and we were doing the installation.

 

[ctaylo360860]

It's a way to lower starting current by about thirty percent since you are putting the motor windings in series is a rough way to explain it, but torque is also lowered so you switch to delta for full power.

SO say i have a 3 phase system supplied bye 277/480v wye utility. the 12 lead motor diagram shows that it can be hooked up wye start- (10,11,12) (4,7) (5,8) (6,9) (t1,l1) (t2,) (l2 t3,l3) high voltage, or in Delta start (L1,1,12) (L2, 2,10) (L3,3,11) (4,7) (5,8) (6,9) Can I use either diagram or do i need to hook it up as wye start since the feeders supplying the motor are 277/480v wye? In my journey I have mostly seen 9 lead motors. any and all help is much appreciated understanding this topic.

 

[infinity]

SO say i have a 3 phase system supplied bye 277/480v wye utility. the 12 lead motor diagram shows that it can be hooked up wye start- (10,11,12) (4,7) (5,8) (6,9) (t1,l1) (t2,) (l2 t3,l3) high voltage, or in Delta start (L1,1,12) (L2, 2,10) (L3,3,11) (4,7) (5,8) (6,9) Can I use either diagram or do i need to hook it up as wye start since the feeders supplying the motor are 277/480v wye? In my journey I have mostly seen 9 lead motors. any and all help is much appreciated understanding this topic.

So you're not looking to connect this as a Wye start-Delta run correct?

 

[NewtonLaw]

For a 12 lead motor there are four potential configurations:

Low voltage delta
Low voltage wye
High voltage wye
High voltage delta

What's the operational difference between high voltage wye and high voltage delta?

You have already received really good answers but I put together a small presentation that may further help the discussion. First the high voltage, low voltage is nothing more that placing two windings for a particular phase in series (high voltage connection) or in parallel (low voltage connection). The function of Star (Wye or Y) to Delta start run is attached for your use.

Hope it helps.

 

[ctaylo360860]

So you're not looking to connect this as a Wye start-Delta run correct?

correct the motor should only get 277v line to ground on each phase, and 480 line to line. everthing is 277/480v wye system.

 

[infinity]

correct the motor should only get 277v line to ground on each phase, and 480 line to line. everthing is 277/480v wye system.

OK so you're looking to wire this for accross the line starting and your question is should you use Wye or Delta wiring configuration?

 

[ctaylo360860]

OK so you're looking to wire this for accross the line starting and your question is should you use Wye or Delta wiring configuration?

Correct. I'm wantinng the motor to start and stay running when I hit the start button, and i want it to shut down when i push the stop button. i believe i would use the delta schematic, but dont understand why even after reading the previous posted information....

 

[ActionDave]

correct the motor should only get 277v line to ground on each phase, and 480 line to line. everthing is 277/480v wye system.

Motor windings don't care about voltage to ground. Overall applied voltage is the only thing that matters. The only difference between a nine lead motor and twelve lead motor is where leads 10, 11, 12 are connected. In a nine lead motor they are buried inside the motor and twelve lead they are brought out to the peckerhead.

 

[infinity]

Correct. I'm wantinng the motor to start and stay running when I hit the start button, and i want it to shut down when i push the stop button. i believe i would use the delta schematic, but dont understand why even after reading the previous posted information....

Do you have a photo of the motor nameplate?

 

[ctaylo360860]

at the moment i dont, I'm in a boot, and cant get out in the field very well. if i remember correctly the in side of the pecker head just had the low voltage and high voltage schematics. on the high voltage side it has the wye start and the run delta.... i will see what i can do to get you a picture of the nameplate...

 

[ctaylo360860]

Motor windings don't care about voltage to ground. Overall applied voltage is the only thing that matters. The only difference between a nine lead motor and twelve lead motor is where leads 10, 11, 12 are connected. In a nine lead motor they are buried inside the motor and twelve lead they are brought out to the peckerhead.

agreed, I just wanted to make sure he understands the exact system the motor connection is involved in... yeah every nine lead i've done on high voltage was (6,9) (4,7) (5,8) (L1, 1) (L2, 2) (L3,3). I have seen twelve lead motors but, were same as originals being replaced so they hooked up like the old ones. just trying to comprehend this subject more.... i understand how a motor works, but not in great depth as some of the brilliant minds of this page...

 

[ActionDave]

agreed, I just wanted to make sure he understands the exact system the motor connection is involved in... yeah every nine lead i've done on high voltage was (6,9) (4,7) (5,8) (L1, 1) (L2, 2) (L3,3). I have seen twelve lead motors but, were same as originals being replaced so they hooked up like the old ones. just trying to comprehend this subject more.... i understand how a motor works, but not in great depth as some of the brilliant minds of this page...

The voltage system is of no consequence. The motor windings will see 480V even if they were hooked up to a corner grounded system where the voltage to ground is also 480V.

As far as understanding motors knowing the fine details of how much many turns of wire it takes and how much iron to wrap it around to get the desired outcome of the motor running is beyond me. As far as understanding how they run it's just turns of wire wrapped around a piece of iron. The more turns of wire the more "resistance" there is. With the motor hooked up in star there's more turns for the electrons to go through, it's a longer roller coaster ride. with the motor hooked up in delta it's a shorter roller coaster ride.

 

[ctaylo360860]

The voltage system is of no consequence. The motor windings will see 480V even if they were hooked up to a corner grounded system where the voltage to ground is also 480V.

As far as understanding motors knowing the fine details of how much many turns of wire it takes and how much iron to wrap it around to get the desired outcome of the motor running is beyond me. As far as understanding how they run it's just turns of wire wrapped around a piece of iron. The more turns of wire the more "resistance" there is. With the motor hooked up in star there's more turns for the electrons to go through, it's a longer roller coaster ride. with the motor hooked up in delta it's a shorter roller coaster ride.

So if I'm understanding this correctly the motor could be wired either way in wye or Delta, with no consequence on either type of system as long as the applied voltage is correct.... is there a standard or any beneficial reason to either the wye or the delta? sounds like the wye or delta hook up has to do more with applied voltages across the pond? unless your doing a star delta hook up for reduced starting voltage... thank you for the explanation.

 

[ActionDave]

So if I'm understanding this correctly the motor could be wired either way in wye or Delta, with no consequence on either type of system as long as the applied voltage is correct.... is there a standard or any beneficial reason to either the wye or the delta? sounds like the wye or delta hook up has to do more with applied voltages across the pond? unless your doing a star delta hook up for reduced starting voltage... thank you for the explanation.

I think you are getting there. The motor in under discussion needs to be hooked up in delta for regular use. The motor designer makes the determination if the windings need to be in one configuration or another for proper operation.

It is different for a NEMA motor vs an IEC motor. In NEMA land star delta would reduce starting speed, in IEC land star or delta is used for high voltage or low voltage.

 

[winnie]

So if I'm understanding this correctly the motor could be wired either way in wye or Delta, with no consequence on either type of system as long as the applied voltage is correct.... is there a standard or any beneficial reason to either the wye or the delta? sounds like the wye or delta hook up has to do more with applied voltages across the pond? unless your doing a star delta hook up for reduced starting voltage... thank you for the explanation.

You are getting there.

One problem is that you are confusing the supply system with the motor connection.

Your supply system is 480/277V wye grounded. This means that the supply phases are designed to be solidly held at 277V to ground and 480V to each other.

The _motor_ doesn't care about the line to ground voltage. The motor only cares about the line-line voltage. This motor will work just fine connected to a 480/277V wye system, or to a 480V 'high leg' delta system, or to a 480V corner grounded delta system. It would work just fine connected to a 480V ungrounded system, and probably to a few other oddball systems.

The _motor_ windings are designed for a particular voltage. With a 12 lead motor there are generally several different configurations that you can wire, each with a different operating voltage. Most likely a delta configuration is for a 480V supply.

So your electrical service/supply is 480/277V wye, and your motor is intended for connection to 480V, and it doesn't matter that the motor is internally wired in delta for this connection.

If you were to internally connect the motor in wye, then it would be intended for running on an 830V supply. This is pretty much never done, instead the motor is internally wired to run at 830V but is connected to a 480V supply as a form of reduced voltage starting. Since you don't want to use reduced voltage starting, you don't want the motor in the wye configuration.

-Jon

 

[Jraef]

So if I'm understanding this correctly the motor could be wired either way in wye or Delta, with no consequence on either type of system as long as the applied voltage is correct.... is there a standard or any beneficial reason to either the wye or the delta? sounds like the wye or delta hook up has to do more with applied voltages across the pond? unless your doing a star delta hook up for reduced starting voltage... thank you for the explanation.

On a typical North America / NEMA design 12 lead motor (as you say you have), you don't really have a "choice" of Wye or Delta, whether you connect it in Wye or Delta is a choice made by the original designer of that specific motor. Once it is made that way, it's done. The only "choice" you have is to BUY a 12 lead motor that is supposed to be connected Wye, or you can buy one that is supposed to be connected Delta. Either one can be connected for High Voltage (460V) or Low Voltage (230V) by putting the windings in series (H) or parallel (L).

BUT...

If your motor says it can be STARTED using Wye-Start / Delta-Run, then the actual connection for running after starting W-D or Across-the-Line or with a VFD or with a Soft Starter, then it is Delta designed motor. If a motor is designed to run Wye, then you cannot use Wye-Delta starting on it so the connection diagram will not reflect that option.

IF IT IS AN IEC (European) 12 lead motor, that is different. But it gets complicated and if you don't have that, it's best to leave it out for now.

 

[ctaylo360860]

On a typical North America / NEMA design 12 lead motor (as you say you have), you don't really have a "choice" of Wye or Delta, whether you connect it in Wye or Delta is a choice made by the original designer of that specific motor. Once it is made that way, it's done. The only "choice" you have is to BUY a 12 lead motor that is supposed to be connected Wye, or you can buy one that is supposed to be connected Delta. Either one can be connected for High Voltage (460V) or Low Voltage (230V) by putting the windings in series (H) or parallel (L).

BUT...

If your motor says it can be STARTED using Wye-Start / Delta-Run, then the actual connection for running after starting W-D or Across-the-Line or with a VFD or with a Soft Starter, then it is Delta designed motor. If a motor is designed to run Wye, then you cannot use Wye-Delta starting on it so the connection diagram will not reflect that option.

IF IT IS AN IEC (European) 12 lead motor, that is different. But it gets complicated and if you don't have that, it's best to leave it out for now.

Thank you guys again so much! I'm very appreciative of the great explanations! they system supplying the motor has nothing do with how you would wire up the motor other than low voltage/high voltage. the wiring diagram on the motor is how it should be wired, Its up to the motor designer to either set the windings up internally so they're wired as wye, delta, or wye-start delta-run. if the motor is internally wired as wye then it will run as designed, and the diagram should show (10,11, and 12), (L1, t1) (L2, t2) (L3,t3) (4,7) (5,8) (6,9) together. if a motor is wired internally delta it will run as designed, in this diagram you would have (t1,12) (t2,10) (t3,11) if the motor is internally wired for wye start delta run, you could set up so you can use it that way as reduced voltage starting, but the wiring diagram should show delta connection (L1,T1,12) (L2,T2,10) (L3, T3,11)(4,7) (5,8) (6,9). both are wye and delta have the windings wired in series if they are connected to high voltage. if theyre are connected in low voltage the windings are wired in series.... what would happen if you took a motor that was designed and internally wired in delta and wired it up as a wye connection or vice versa a wye desinged motor wired in delta?

 

[ActionDave]

the system supplying the motor has nothing do with how you would wire up the motor other than low voltage/high voltage.

Correct

the wiring diagram on the motor is how it should be wired, Its up to the motor designer to either set the windings up internally so they're wired as wye, delta,

That is true for a nine lead motor.

or wye-start delta-run.

That is what a twelve lead motor is for

.... wye and delta have the windings wired in series if they are connected to high voltage.

Correct

if theyre are connected in low voltage the windings are wired in series...

The windings would be connected in parallel for low voltage, (I think you got this correct and just made a typo)

what would happen if you took a motor that was designed and internally wired in delta and wired it up as a wye connection or vice versa a wye desinged motor wired in delta?

It's not possible to do that.

A dual voltage, three phase motor has two sets of windings for phase A, two for phase B, two for phase C. That's six coils of wire times two ends each equals twelve. If the motor is internally wired in delta or wye then 10,11,12 are made up deep inside the motor and you can't get to them to change it.