120V receptacle in bathroom with steam generator?

[curt swartz]

Nevertheless, I think your original question about the receptacle serving the vanity has been answered.

A properly built steam shower is a sealed room. Everything inside of that room is inside the shower. A receptacle is not permitted inside the shower.

The originally plan just shows a curb-less shower which is becoming very common. As long as the vanity is not in the shower area it would be acceptable since the entire room is not considered a shower.

 

[James L]

Taking long hot shower and not running exhaust fan sort of gives you same effect doesn't it?

I wouldn't do anything different than if there wasn't a steam generator. Most I would do is use WR type receptacle but probably not use a WR cover on it.

I would put a weather resistant cover on it because water would run down the walls. At a minimum it would need a gasket behind the plate

 

[winnie]

I agree, but I can't enforce the "Good idea code". I have checked a couple of shower steam generator install manuals and there's not much information about the enclosure/room design requirements.

I think from your position as an inspector, you are limited to the requirements of receptacle placement (eg. a basin in a bathroom must have a receptacle), and that listed hardware be installed in accordance with its listing (eg. a receptacle installed in a wet environment must be suitable for wet environments). Do you handle building codes as well? Perhaps there are limitations regarding a wall or divider between the shower/steam generator and the basin side of the room.

For example, if code _requires_ a receptacle next to a basin, and code _prohibits_ a receptacle in a shower, then perhaps there is a requirement that the basin be separated from the shower.

But as you note you can't (and shouldn't) enforce the 'good idea code'.

-Jon

 

[retirede]

A properly built steam shower is a sealed room. Everything inside of that room is inside the shower. A receptacle is not permitted inside the shower.

The originally plan just shows a curb-less shower which is becoming very common. As long as the vanity is not in the shower area it would be acceptable since the entire room is not considered a shower.

I 100% concur with the second paragraph.

Not so sure about he first. Is there some code that declares the entire room a shower if steam is involved? The entire room will fill with steam, but does that make it a shower?

 

[Fishbrain]

I have never seen one that has double walls and you definitely don't what a vapor barrier between walls or it will trap moiature in the walls.

What you are describing sounds more like a sauna, not a steam shower. A sauna has a large heater in the room to make the room very hot and you can add some moisture to the unit. A steam shower has a remote mounted steam generator that fills the room with hot steam.

A sauna will typically have wood (cedar) walls, celing and floor.

A sauna , Turkish bath and other names are just another terms for Steam Bath. The word SAUNA is a Finnish word.
The size of the steam generator differs depending on the size of the room and the number of occupants that the room can accommodate..
When the steam room is being used. . . the steam inside doesn’t condense that can lead to moisture dripping on the walls.
The steam room is held at between 100 deg F and 104 F. hence it prevents condensation.
At this temperature, there is no discomfort among the occupants . . . . the heat is tolerable.

Higher than this range will cook your brain LOL
Also, at this elevated temperature-- the air can hold more moisture.

You don’t shower with steam. It only provides heat in the room.

Your contention that the membrane in a double wall will exacerbate the occurrence of condensation is BUNK.

If this were true, all houses built with asphalt saturated membrane with the stucco wire-- will cause moisture condensation inside the walls that can lead to damage of the wood structure.
But instead, it helps in abating the destructive condensation.

This is no different from the double redwood wall that I built. They serve as insulation to prevent condensation. Wood is a good insulator.

Even at this higher than normal temp, moisture held in the air will not condense . . . it will be held airborne until some factor like sudden drop of temp occurs.

But this sudden drop in temp never happens in steam rooms because of the steam.
Unless you leave the room with doors open and unheated in the middle of winter.

Your Physics lessons regarding difference in temperature and humidity should have been told by your high school teacher.

Fish

 

[retirede]

A sauna , Turkish bath and other names are just another terms for Steam Bath. The word SAUNA is a Finnish word.
The size of the steam generator differs depending on the size of the room and the number of occupants that the room can accommodate..
When the steam room is being used. . . the steam inside doesn’t condense that can lead to moisture dripping on the walls.
The steam room is held at between 100 deg F and 104 F. hence it prevents condensation.
At this temperature, there is no discomfort among the occupants . . . . the heat is tolerable.

Higher than this range will cook your brain LOL
Also, at this elevated temperature-- the air can hold more moisture.

You don’t shower with steam. It only provides heat in the room.

Your contention that the membrane in a double wall will exacerbate the occurrence of condensation is BUNK.

If this were true, all houses built with asphalt saturated membrane with the stucco wire-- will cause moisture condensation inside the walls that can lead to damage of the wood structure.
But instead, it helps in abating the destructive condensation.

This is no different from the double redwood wall that I built. They serve as insulation to prevent condensation. Wood is a good insulator.

Even at this higher than normal temp, moisture held in the air will not condense . . . it will be held airborne until some factor like sudden drop of temp occurs.

But this sudden drop in temp never happens in steam rooms because of the steam.
Unless you leave the room with doors open and unheated in the middle of winter.

Your Physics lessons regarding difference in temperature and humidity should have been told by your high school teacher.

Fish

I learned about saunas in Finland from Finns. They have both saunas and steam saunas. A (non steam) sauna is dry. They also have what they call a smoke sauna. And it’s not unusual for temperatures to reach 80-85C.
I built one in my house. I use it set to 175F. It can be operated steam or dry.
You are correct - I don’t ever recall seeing condensation in any sauna.

 

[winnie]

A sauna , Turkish bath and other names are just another terms for Steam Bath. The word SAUNA is a Finnish word.
The size of the steam generator differs depending on the size of the room and the number of occupants that the room can accommodate..
When the steam room is being used. . . the steam inside doesn’t condense that can lead to moisture dripping on the walls.

.....

Even at this higher than normal temp, moisture held in the air will not condense . . . it will be held airborne until some factor like sudden drop of temp occurs.

But this sudden drop in temp never happens in steam rooms because of the steam.
Unless you leave the room with doors open and unheated in the middle of winter.

....

Um, if the wall temperature is lower than the dew point of the air in the room, then moisture will condense. It doesn't matter how warm the walls are if they are too cool for the contained air.

-Jon

 

[kwired]

Um, if the wall temperature is lower than the dew point of the air in the room, then moisture will condense. It doesn't matter how warm the walls are if they are too cool for the contained air.

-Jon

Correct. At same time if you raise the temp everywhere in the room the chance of some surface being below dew point level isn't that great. About need some sort of good heat conductor that extends to outside and have really cold temp outside to have much of a chance. Even a window at "room temp" ranges might get condensation on it if really cold outside, but raise that room temp to ~104F and you lessen the chance of that happening because the inside surfaces of said window are that much warmer. Bring a cold drink into the room and yes you very well get condensation on the container - until it gets warmed up enough.

As far as the design of things in OP, maybe energy codes kick in and would prohibit this steam bath being in unnecessarily large space?

You also can have condensation on surfaces during the time it takes to heat those surfaces up as well as after you turn the heat down.

 

[winnie]

Even a window at "room temp" ranges might get condensation on it if really cold outside, but raise that room temp to ~104F and you lessen the chance of that happening because the inside surfaces of said window are that much warmer. Bring a cold drink into the room and yes you very well get condensation on the container - until it gets warmed up enough.

I agree that if you heat the room significantly you reduce the chance of condensation. But the counterpoint is that if you are heating the room _with steam_ then your chance of condensation goes up. In the limit of pure steam in the room (not happening with people in there) the walls would be heated by the steam condensing and you _must_ have condensation.

I don't know if these 'steam generators' dump pure steam into the room which gets mixed with room air, or if they dump hot air mixed with water vapor into the room. I imagine a situation where so much moisture is being pumped into the room that the RH is '>100%', meaning that the air is saturated and there are suspended droplets of water. If the walls are warmer than the air you might still see moisture collection, but if the walls are heated to heat the room then this moisture collection might be insignificant.

As a design choice (not something that the OP could enforce), I might sell the customer on heating the wall and mirror over the sink, and have airflow in that region. It is a really nice effect when the room is steamy but the mirror is not fogged. And this customer is presumably paying for 'high end'.

-Jon

 

[kwired]

I agree that if you heat the room significantly you reduce the chance of condensation. But the counterpoint is that if you are heating the room _with steam_ then your chance of condensation goes up. In the limit of pure steam in the room (not happening with people in there) the walls would be heated by the steam condensing and you _must_ have condensation.

I don't know if these 'steam generators' dump pure steam into the room which gets mixed with room air, or if they dump hot air mixed with water vapor into the room. I imagine a situation where so much moisture is being pumped into the room that the RH is '>100%', meaning that the air is saturated and there are suspended droplets of water. If the walls are warmer than the air you might still see moisture collection, but if the walls are heated to heat the room then this moisture collection might be insignificant.

As a design choice (not something that the OP could enforce), I might sell the customer on heating the wall and mirror over the sink, and have airflow in that region. It is a really nice effect when the room is steamy but the mirror is not fogged. And this customer is presumably paying for 'high end'.

-Jon

I don't know anything about these "steam generators" either. I do agree with pretty much all of what you said though. I kind of doubt they inject pure steam into the room, if they do it is going to condense into a water vapor pretty quickly at least until room temp rises to a certain level. A larger (more of an industrial) steam boiler is about only thing that will sustain much volume of pure steam that doesn't condense into a water vapor pretty much immediately, and that would be pretty dangerous if you could fill even a small room with pure steam that doesn't quickly condense into a water vapor.

 

[curt swartz]

I don't know anything about these "steam generators" either. I do agree with pretty much all of what you said though. I kind of doubt they inject pure steam into the room, if they do it is going to condense into a water vapor pretty quickly at least until room temp rises to a certain level. A larger (more of an industrial) steam boiler is about only thing that will sustain much volume of pure steam that doesn't condense into a water vapor pretty much immediately, and that would be pretty dangerous if you could fill even a small room with pure steam that doesn't quickly condense into a water vapor.

I have been involved with the constriction of many steam room/steam showers. The steam generator continuously "pumps" the sealed room with steam. As the steam rises to the ceiling it coverts back to water and runs across the sloped ceiling down the walls.

Everything in the room will be very wet. The walls will have water running down them similar to someone spraying a handheld shower head at them.

It seems many members posting here think a steam room and sauna are the same but they are very different. A sauna is dry heat.

We used to wire many saunas in the late 80's and early 90's but have not seen one installed in years.

A sauna also required a dedicated room vs a steam room is just an add on to t a standard shower.

The steam generator companies have decided to add all kinds of fancy stuff as options now. We have to install drivers behind the tiles for music, color changing LED lighting and aroma theropy.

 

[Fishbrain]

Um, if the wall temperature is lower than the dew point of the air in the room, then moisture will condense. It doesn't matter how warm the walls are if they are too cool for the contained air.

-Jon

Dew Point is highly dependent on humidity and temperature..
In order for steam to condense-- the temperature difference should be significant enough for the gaseous state of water to change.

The relative humidity must be as close to the ambient temperature of the surrounding.
In a steam room—the air inside is heated and everything that’s inside the room will absorb heat.
The heat of the steam is transferred to the walls by the action of
conductive heating and therefore prevent the walls from further drop in temperature.
This process will negate the drop of temperature that will cause
condensation.

(The DEW POINT at 100 degree temp is close to 100 % Humidity.). . . and that’s not easy to achieve.)

 

[winnie]

The relative humidity must be as close to the ambient temperature of the surrounding.
In a steam room—the air inside is heated and everything that’s inside the room will absorb heat.
The heat of the steam is transferred to the walls by the action of
conductive heating

Are we discussing the same things?

I have steam heat in my house. The boiler generates steam which travels to the radiators and then condenses (inside the radiators). Heat then transfers through the metal wall of the radiators and then via conduction to the air and via radiation to the rest of the room.

The steam generators are electric boilers which inject steam into the room itself. It seems that this steam would need to condense somewhere in the room to deliver heat to the room.

-Jon

 

[Fishbrain]

Are we discussing the same things?

I have steam heat in my house. The boiler generates steam which travels to the radiators and then condenses (inside the radiators). Heat then transfers through the metal wall of the radiators and then via conduction to the air and via radiation to the rest of the room.

The steam generators are electric boilers which inject steam into the room itself. It seems that this steam would need to condense somewhere in the room to deliver heat to the room.

-Jon

Well, close but not quite.

Delivering steam to your radiator is different from the context of steam room. . . in that, the heat transfer is accomplished in a closed loop (no pun) system.

In steam room setup-- the energy in the form of steam that is delivered-- never goes back to the source where the energy was first harnessed thru the generation of steam.
In spite of this difference. . . the utilization of the heat energy still follows the law of Physics.

Of the three types of HEAT TRANSFER (convection , conduction and radiation), the heated steam heats up the radiator fins and then heats the surrounding air. The “spent “ steam returns to its source and re-heated.

The spent steam-- as opposed to the “live steam” as the term used in locomotive.

The energy that heats up the room (your house) is accomplished thru radiation (by the action of the radiator) as opposed to convection that’s occurring in the steam room.

In this heat transfer mode, the thermal energy is transferred thru (as was stated) via convection.

“Are we discussing the same things?”
Yes! We are.

It’s as if sharing a bowl of salad with different dressing.

Fish

 

[winnie]

"spent steam"?

I am not running a steam engine in my home. I have a 'single pipe steam radiator' system. In my home the "spent steam" that returns to the boiler is _liquid water_.

When one of these steam generators is used in a shower, steam at atmospheric pressure is pumped into the room.

If the moisture capacity of the air flowing in that room can hold the mass of steam being introduced, then I agree you won't get condensation, just heating.

But I presume that one of the desired effects of having a steam generator is to actually get 'steam' (meaning saturated air with suspended droplets of water). If you have a room where the air itself is already _at_ its dew point, then if the walls are at all colder than the air there will be additional condensation at the walls.

Here is a link to an example steam generator:

Mr. Steam eSeries 7500-Watt Steam Bath Generator MS225EC1 - The Home Depot

The Mr. Steam eTEMPO 7.5kW Steam Bath Generator features removable and serviceable industrial grade heating element. It comes with assembled dimensions of 14.75 in. h x 6.75 in. d x 14.5 in. w. It is easy to add plug and play spa therapy accessories.

www.homedepot.com

The instruction manual gives sizing based upon the volume of the room, and for a large room you might need a 15 or 20kW unit. Per the instructions, 20kW for 875 cubic feet, which is roughly the size of the room shown in the original post.

20kW boils roughly 62 pounds of water per hour. This is enough water to saturate 16000 cubic feet of air at 110F.

If you have an 875 cubic foot room, and have 19 air changes per hour with bone dry makeup air, and the steam heats the air by mixing without condensing to 110F, then you won't get condensation in the room.

But clearly this unit is sized to _saturate_ a room with a normal level of air exchange. There is going to be condensation all over the place.

-Jon

 

[wwhitney]

Under the UPC you could say when the floor slope reaches 2" above the finish drain that would be the "curb". I still say it is a bad design. (just because you can doesn't mean you should)

That would not be how I interpret UPC 408.5. I think that with a curbless shower you get to draw an imaginary line that defines the outlines of the shower, consistent with the minimum size requirements. Often it's pretty clear where to draw that line, but with a "shower room" type install as in the OP, it's not at all clear.

Chapter 4 Plumbing Fixtures and Fixture Fittings: Plumbing Fixtures and Fixture Fittings, California Plumbing Code 2019 | UpCodes

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction

up.codes

Note that 2018 UPC 408.5's last sentence says "the immediate adjoining space to showers without thresholds shall be considered a wet location and shall comply with the requirements of the building, residential, and electrical codes." So that raises the question of how far the wet area should extend, particularly in a shower room like in the OP. One could argue that the whole room should be considered a wet room.

Of course, we don't know if the OP is in a jurisdiction that has adopted the UPC rather than the IPC or one of the other possibilities.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Fishbrain]

"spent steam"?

I am not running a steam engine in my home. I have a 'single pipe steam radiator' system. In my home the "spent steam" that returns to the boiler is _liquid water_.

When one of these steam generators is used in a shower, steam at atmospheric pressure is pumped into the room.

If the moisture capacity of the air flowing in that room can hold the mass of steam being introduced, then I agree you won't get condensation, just heating.

But I presume that one of the desired effects of having a steam generator is to actually get 'steam' (meaning saturated air with suspended droplets of water). If you have a room where the air itself is already _at_ its dew point, then if the walls are at all colder than the air there will be additional condensation at the walls.

Here is a link to an example steam generator:

Mr. Steam eSeries 7500-Watt Steam Bath Generator MS225EC1 - The Home Depot

The Mr. Steam eTEMPO 7.5kW Steam Bath Generator features removable and serviceable industrial grade heating element. It comes with assembled dimensions of 14.75 in. h x 6.75 in. d x 14.5 in. w. It is easy to add plug and play spa therapy accessories.

www.homedepot.com

The instruction manual gives sizing based upon the volume of the room, and for a large room you might need a 15 or 20kW unit. Per the instructions, 20kW for 875 cubic feet, which is roughly the size of the room shown in the original post.

20kW boils roughly 62 pounds of water per hour. This is enough water to saturate 16000 cubic feet of air at 110F.

If you have an 875 cubic foot room, and have 19 air changes per hour with bone dry makeup air, and the steam heats the air by mixing without condensing to 110F, then you won't get condensation in the room.

But clearly this unit is sized to _saturate_ a room with a normal level of air exchange. There is going to be condensation all over the place.

-Jon

If you live in million dollar home where family members are steam room freaks and making a boatload of money--that model should fit the bill.

There is a money saving alternative—you can make your own steam generator.

All you need is a pressure cooker.

It uses 980 watts of power.

You can install two units if you like.

I haven’t used mine for almost a decade since my grown-up kids went on their own.

Yeah, you can spend $5000 to install a 7500 watts, 240 volts one.

Mine uses gas with option to switch to propane.

Fish

 

[kwired]

Isn't real steam invisible, and essentially "dry"? And very high temp and too dangerous for a person to occupy same space.

When it hits cooler air it condenses into "water vapor" droplets, or becomes a cloud or a fog, which is what is the desired effect of said "steam rooms".

The only "steam" generated in these setups is in limited space near the heating source and further it travels from that source the more likely it is to have condensed in the air to form water vapor. Keep it under pressure and above boiling temperature like inside a boiler vessel it will have less tendency to condense.

 

[winnie]

Isn't real steam invisible, and essentially "dry"? And very high temp and too dangerous for a person to occupy same space.

When an engineer uses the term steam, it is exactly as you describe for power generation. 'Saturated steam' is often used for heating.

What a home owner calls 'steam' is the fog that you describe.

-Jon

 

[kwired]

When an engineer uses the term steam, it is exactly as you describe for power generation. 'Saturated steam' is often used for heating.

What a home owner calls 'steam' is the fog that you describe.

-Jon

I do some work in a small food product manufacturing facility, they have a real steam boiler. Guessing the steam used for a lot of processes is truly steam from the boiler to the process equipment, maybe needs a little warm up time when cold starting, but eventually is pure steam in the lines, but may quickly turn into saturated steam within the process equipment once temperature and pressure changes begin to become more drastic. And depending on the application particularly those that don't have a return back to the boiler may end up also giving off the fog or water vapor cloud as well. Some wash tank heating applications they have they just inject steam directly into water stored in tank, but product heating is typically in tanks with steam piping in jacket of the tank and may or may not have a return line back to the boiler, but not returning it is just not realizing how much they probably save by returning that heat back to the boiler and maybe a little laziness as well.