James L
Senior Member
- Location
- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician
I would consider pigtailing the #12 to #14 in the panel. Not saying I would do it, but I would consider it
12awg to 14awg on 15A circuit
- Thread starter Mgarf33
- Start date
- Status
Good point Infinity and since Virginia adopted the International energy Conservation Code and section C405.9 states the total voltage drop across the combination of feeders and branch circuits shall not exceed 5%, one could throw it right back at the inspector and say the codes actually require it
Just for example say you had an ideal service and voltage drop at the service was 0.1%, so then you could have 4.9% voltage drop at the end of the bedroom branch circuit,
The largest load is not going to be 15 amps so cut it down to say 10 amps? Say for a vacuum, iron or space heater?
With those generous givens 4.9 % voltage drop that puts 14 AWG at ~110 feet max distance before you'd need to switch to 12.
(I am cheating and just using the southwire app)
The largest load is not going to be 15 amps so cut it down to say 10 amps? Say for a vacuum, iron or space heater?
With those generous givens 4.9 % voltage drop that puts 14 AWG at ~110 feet max distance before you'd need to switch to 12.
(I am cheating and just using the southwire app)
I always do that.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Now you violated a common shirt pocket rule of no splices allowed in a panel.
Mgarf33
Member
- Location
- Virginia Beach, Va
Contacted the city again this morning to speak to the electrical supervisor. He's basically backing the inspector stating that if someone were to replace the breaker in the future... blah blah blah, so this must be the city's rule not just the individual inspector. This philosophy is broken, what is to be done with a new high efficiency HVAC unit that has 6awg and the new unit takes a max OCPD of 30? So, happy homeowner replaces a tripping breaker not knowing the compressor has a partially shorted stator. He upsizes the breaker according to conductor size and blows the terminal head straight out of the compressor.
Just plain ignorance is all it is, I guess we need to replace the conductor whenever we upgrade the appliance efficiency? They can simply hide behind the "wiring methods" deemed safe practice by the AHJ for anything the dream up. A contractors only fight is to file an appeal holding up a job for potentially a month. Ridiculous! There's got to be a better way to fight this kind of abuse. I mean hell, criminals become hero's in our country, so why are tradesmen left to suffer with governmental incompetence?
Just plain ignorance is all it is, I guess we need to replace the conductor whenever we upgrade the appliance efficiency? They can simply hide behind the "wiring methods" deemed safe practice by the AHJ for anything the dream up. A contractors only fight is to file an appeal holding up a job for potentially a month. Ridiculous! There's got to be a better way to fight this kind of abuse. I mean hell, criminals become hero's in our country, so why are tradesmen left to suffer with governmental incompetence?
Last edited:
Find out who enforces the Virginia adopted the International energy Conservation Code and section C405.9, up-sizing for voltage drop is a new law . I'll add I doubt electrical inspectors know too enforce it yet.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Seems that likely would be something that actually needs to go into lawbooks as a start to get EI's enforcing it? Not saying this code isn't in lawbooks, but might not be noted in the electrical division's (or whatever they may call it) duties of enforcement. Here about only code mentioned for EI's to enforce is whichever edition of NFPA 70 they have on file and some other local rules (which are mostly licensing and permit rules and such) and that is about it. So if it is not something addressed in NEC, they don't have much say in what you can or can't do.
Frank DuVal
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Engineer
Hmmm, tread lightly there, just saying, this happened:
James L
Senior Member
- Location
- Kansas Cty, Mo, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician
If it's the city's rule, the inspector can point you to a written amendment. Otherwise it's his own imagination and he should be challenged on it.
Yeah the way it happens here is the building inspectors / plans reviewers enforce the other codes that impact electrical installations. Its the same energy code that requires me to do a lighting energy code calc before we do new commercial work.
There are lots of other things in codes that impact our work, like structural codes that regulate how big a hole you can drill thru a stud, fire codes that say where smoke detectors go in a dwelling, mechanical code says bath fan has to be on a timer or some automatic device etc etc.
If you say wire a new house here and don't wire for hard wired smokes you'll pass your rough electric inspection but fail a building building inspection.
The inspector may be incorrect, but the plainest thing to do is not change wire gauge. Then no issue. I get it -- even more now most light fixtures are LED and they need little. But, not just an ignorant DIY or handyman coming later, but I'd wager no one is running down every termination of a circuit when considering to upsize a breaker when it looks like it can be done. That means, you can never really be sure you don't have some mixed gauges on the circuit. Simple is better.
All that said, it is there now and it is not wrong nor dangerous -- I'd put the #14 splice in the panel and a note.
All that said, it is there now and it is not wrong nor dangerous -- I'd put the #14 splice in the panel and a note.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Yes there may be other inspectors and not just EI's that can impact what we do. I mostly have to just deal with EI's where I am. Sometimes fire marshal, though that usually is over when/where certain items must be present and not so much on how they are installed. Egress lighting maybe the number one thing there. Commercial cooking exhaust hoods maybe next. They don't care how you wire the hoods, That is for the EI, just that it shuts off the appliances when actuated and turns the exhaust fan on even if it wasn't already on.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
What do you mean? It will end up on 20 amp circuits like everything else and occasionally even on 30 amp circuits.
Mgarf33
Member
- Location
- Virginia Beach, Va
Yes, that was a sad story, the first victim was a contractor filling out paperwork in his vehicle. He proceeded to go in and shoot a bunch of co-workers. I live about 2 miles away from this location. I had been there on many occasions, but mostly file permits online these days. They demolished the huge building and relocated the inspections department several miles away.
Mgarf33
Member
- Location
- Virginia Beach, Va
IRBC
Specifically states "Where more than one... ampacity could apply" This indicated the wiring method is allowable using the lowest ampacity as the circuit rating which is what I did. Not to mention the exception where the higher ampacity can be used. Furthermore most ceiling mounted luminaires and fans these days have built in protection which would be touching a bit on article 440.
Exception: Where different ampacities apply to portions of a circuit, the higher ampacity shall be permitted to be used where the total portion(s) of the circuit with the lower ampacity does not exceed the lesser of 10 feet (3048 mm) or 10 percent of the total circuit. [310.15(A)(2) Exception]
Specifically states "Where more than one... ampacity could apply" This indicated the wiring method is allowable using the lowest ampacity as the circuit rating which is what I did. Not to mention the exception where the higher ampacity can be used. Furthermore most ceiling mounted luminaires and fans these days have built in protection which would be touching a bit on article 440.
E3701.3 Selection of ampacity.
Where more than one calculated or tabulated ampacity could apply for a given circuit length, the lowest value shall be used. [310.15(A)(2)]Exception: Where different ampacities apply to portions of a circuit, the higher ampacity shall be permitted to be used where the total portion(s) of the circuit with the lower ampacity does not exceed the lesser of 10 feet (3048 mm) or 10 percent of the total circuit. [310.15(A)(2) Exception]
sgtsparky
Member
- Location
- Dexter, Oregon, USA
Your inspector is an idiot, there is a pretty picture exhibit 220.4…10 on 15 amp and 13 on 20 amp but this is commercial and industrial, the NEC has no limit for receptacles in a residential structure.
I am glad my state has a cite it to write it rule, I moved several counties after taking an early retirement bought an old 1930 farm house to fix up the inspector said I had 5 or 6 code errors I said I’ll be right back and brought out my well worn handbook I said what is #1 he fumbled all over himself and said well these are things I like. I said fine cite the code reference and I will change things, he signed the green sticker at that point. I showed him my general journeyman signing supervising card and the next time he came out he signed the card without even going in the the home. Some guys are jerks to home owners I knew it could happen but never that bad.
Mgarf33
Member
- Location
- Virginia Beach, Va
Not sure if it was his made up rule or a supervisor that dreamed it up. We are supposed to be a Dillon rule state as well. Any inspector shall follow only the codes specifically written. They do have authority to interpret the code, but IMHO, calling the "wiring methods, safe practices" is a cop out because they don't really have a good answer. Their only answer was "what if a future homeowner..." Well, if we were dealing with "what if" then we would need to pretty much scrap the code books as they are written. It's not our job to fix future incompetence, it's our job to install materials in a safe manner as prescribed by code books. I'm not willing to call anyone an idiot because I just don't know if he was following rules set forth by a higher up. They may actually believe they're doing the right thing, to the best of their knowledge. Sometimes they need to understand that they don't always know best. IMO my wiring method exceeded code.
Last edited by a moderator:
- Status