12awg to 14awg on 15A circuit

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Mgarf33 said:
Not sure if it was his made up rule or a supervisor that dreamed it up. We are supposed to be a Dillon rule state as well. Any inspector shall follow only the codes specifically written. They do have authority to interpret the code, but IMHO, calling the "wiring methods, safe practices" is a cop out because they don't really have a good answer. Their only answer was "what if a future homeowner..." Well, if we were dealing with "what if" then we would need to pretty much scrap the code books as they are written. It's not our job to fix future incompetence, it's our job to install materials in a safe manner as prescribed by code books. I'm not willing to call anyone an idiot because I just don't know if he was following rules set forth by a higher up. They may actually believe they're doing the right thing, to the best of their knowledge. Sometimes they need to understand that they don't always know best. IMO my wiring method exceeded code.
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Problem is over the years the NEC has added some things on a what if type of justification as well. Neutrals at switch boxes, fan rated boxes if multiple ungrounded leads present are a couple that come to mind right away. IMO those are design issues and shouldn't be a rule.
 
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Mgarf33 said:
We are supposed to be a Dillon rule state as well. Any inspector shall follow only the codes specifically written. They do have authority to interpret the code
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I just had to google what a Dillion rules state is, thats wild
 
Get written documentation in writing with county letterhead so its clear as day the inspector is not allowing #12 wire on a 15 amp circuit.
Looks like you could appeal this to your local board of building code appeals within 30 days.
First file for an appeal.
Then I would do whats needed so you don't hold the job up, make the required changes under protest to get the inspection passed.
Document how much that cost you, include your time.
Take photos, have a witness.
You'll be doing your civic duty to help all us other sparkies.
 
tortuga said:
Get written documentation in writing with county letterhead so its clear as day the inspector is not allowing #12 wire on a 15 amp circuit.
Looks like you could appeal this to your local board of building code appeals within 30 days.
First file for an appeal.
Then I would do whats needed so you don't hold the job up, make the required changes under protest to get the inspection passed.
Document how much that cost you, include your time.
Take photos, have a witness.
You'll be doing your civic duty to help all us other sparkies.
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Spoke with the director of state and building codes from the department of housing and community development (DHCD of VA). The problem with an appeal is it could take 20 days. If you move forward with the project, I was advised there would be no issue to appeal. At that point it wouldn't be an appeal of the building code, it would now be a lawsuit to recoup the losses. The director advised me he'd seen it happen before, and the case was immediately dismissed because there was nothing to appeal, the job was approved.
So, that's my whole issue. Basically, contractors are stuck with either bending over backwards for any fictitious rule that is demanded by an inspector, or they can hold up a job with an appeal. That is complete BS. IMO. The nice thing about an appeal is the board that hears the case is made up of fellow tradesmen, not city officials.
Funny thing, even the director of VA building codes said he couldn't see why oversizing of any wiring would be a problem?
 
Mgarf33 said:
Basically, contractors are stuck with either bending over backwards for any fictitious rule that is demanded by an inspector, or they can hold up a job with an appeal. That is complete BS. IMO. The nice thing about an appeal is the board that hears the case is made up of fellow tradesmen, not city officials.
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I know what I would do.
 
I would challenge it. I have "officially" challenged an inspector's fail, civilly and respectfully, four times over the years, and "won" every time.
 
SceneryDriver said:
I agree. Inspector is incorrect. That said, if 14awg wire were used to connect fixed lighting on a 20A circuit, I don't really think it poses a practical safety risk. It's against code and I wouldn't do it, but if someone throws a 20A breaker on the circuit in question in the future, the house won't suddenly burn down. That lighting leg, especially if powering a fixed light fixture on the ceiling is likely to see a fraction of an amp, what with LED bulbs in use these days.


SceneryDriver
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Many under cabinet light fixtures only have enough space for #14 and most of the circuits nearby are on 20 amp breaker. I don't like using #14 on a 20 amp circuit but it's impractical to squeeze #12 into a tiny fixutre that's pulling 2 watts. I've tried doing it by the code book but it's close to impossible oftentimes, for little benefit.
 
hanklazard said:
Many under cabinet light fixtures only have enough space for #14 and most of the circuits nearby are on 20 amp breaker. I don't like using #14 on a 20 amp circuit but it's impractical to squeeze #12 into a tiny fixutre that's pulling 2 watts. I've tried doing it by the code book but it's close to impossible oftentimes, for little benefit.
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hanklazard said:
Many under cabinet light fixtures only have enough space for #14 and most of the circuits nearby are on 20 amp breaker. I don't like using #14 on a 20 amp circuit but it's impractical to squeeze #12 into a tiny fixutre that's pulling 2 watts. I've tried doing it by the code book but it's close to impossible oftentimes, for little benefit.
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Since you're not supposed to have lighting on kitchen receptacle circuits, that's a violation either way.
 
LarryFine said:
Since you're not supposed to have lighting on kitchen receptacle circuits, that's a violation either way.
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Thanks for that reminder. I was reviewing a code book and just realized this. There are slim undercabinet light junction boxes that make it easier to accomodate #12.
 
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