14 gauge travellers

[Raptor1963]

House wiring 101....I have an inspector that is giving me some grief in regards to running 14 ga. travellers between 2 3-way switches in some lighting circuits. I have 12ga. home run to the 3-way switch, 14ga. travellers, then 12/2 to the ceiling fan. I used 15a breakers for my branch circuit protection. The inspector says I need to change the travellers to 12ga wire, because someone could change out the breaker to a 20a. Is this true??

 

[iwire]

The inspector says I need to change the travellers to 12ga wire, because someone could change out the breaker to a 20a. Is this true??

There is nothing in the NEC to back the inspectors position.

 

[480sparky]

House wiring 101....I have an inspector that is giving me some grief in regards to running 14 ga. travellers between 2 3-way switches in some lighting circuits. I have 12ga. home run to the 3-way switch, 14ga. travellers, then 12/2 to the ceiling fan. I used 15a breakers for my branch circuit protection. The inspector says I need to change the travellers to 12ga wire, because someone could change out the breaker to a 20a. Is this true??

Yes, it's true someone could chage out the breaker to a 20a. But then they would not fall under the definition of 'qualified personel.'

Wire size NEVER determines the ampacity of a circuit. The OCPD does. The inspector is nuts. I routinely install 10, 8, 6, 4, even #2 on a 20a breaker for parking lot lights for voltage drop purposes. It's still a 20a circuit, and no more.

 

[winnie]

IMHO the inspector is trying to enforce a design preference.

I often see it suggested as _good design_ that you only use a single size wire for residential circuits. The stated reason is to remove any confusion about the correct OCPD to use. This is a reasonable, if rather small, design consideration.

I do not feel that this is a particularly important design consideration; all other things being equal I would use the same size wire; but there are often many reasons to change wire size; for example when dealing with voltage drop.

What is absolutely clear is that there is no _code requirement_ that you use the same size wire in the entire circuit; simply that you protect the circuit for the weakest link. If you have a mix of 12ga and 14ga, protected by a 15A breaker, then you are kosher with respect to the NEC.

Note that some localities have amendments to the code that require 12ga conductors.

-Jon

 

[iwire]

I ran 10/2 to a single 15 amp duplex in my own home for no other reason then it was what I had close at hand. :smile:

 

[480sparky]

I ran 10/2 to a single 15 amp duplex in my own home for no other reason then it was what I had close at hand. :smile:

Was the recep rated for use with 10? :smile:

 

[charlie]

FWIW, if some idiot were to replace the 15 ampere overcurrent device with a 20 ampere one, the 14 AWG is rated for 20 amperes. He would have created a Code violation, 240.4(D)(3), but would not have created a hazard. BTW, this is why I support the concept of using 14 AWG for 20 ampere switch legs. :smile:

 

[jm1470]

Maybe the inspector is looking 240.4 d4 14 guage wire 15 amp circuit

 

[iwire]

Maybe the inspector is looking 240.4 d4 14 guage wire 15 amp circuit

There is a 15 amp breaker on the circuit.

 

[wbalsam1]

The inspection company I work for has a written policy that it's inspectors must follow with regard to this condition. To paraphrase it, it requires a tag to be placed in the panelboard where the affected branch circuit originates that indicates a lesser amperage/guage conductor has been utilized within the identified BC and cautions future workers, etc., not to increase the size of the OCPD.
The tag identifies the inspector and the installer/contractor.
Just this policy alone has been an effective deterrent often resulting in the installer up-sizing the conductor to match the rest of the circuit conductors.

 

[raider1]

The inspection company I work for has a written policy that it's inspectors must follow with regard to this condition. To paraphrase it, it requires a tag to be placed in the panelboard where the affected branch circuit originates that indicates a lesser amperage/guage conductor has been utilized within the identified BC and cautions future workers, etc., not to increase the size of the OCPD.
The tag identifies the inspector and the installer/contractor.
Just this policy alone has been an effective deterrent often resulting in the installer up-sizing the conductor to match the rest of the circuit conductors.

While that is a good idea, is there a local code that actually requires this or is this something that the inspection company wants?

Chris

 

[wbalsam1]

While that is a good idea, is there a local code that actually requires this or is this something that the inspection company wants?

Chris

Not a local code. Just a written policy of a private third-party electrical construction inspection agency. Signing an agreement to obide with the policy manual is a pre-condition for employment. :smile:

 

[iwire]

I don't even see it as a good idea.

Do fused disconnects require notes left in them regarding fuse size?

 

[iwire]

Not a local code. Just a written policy of a private third-party electrical construction inspection agency.

By what right does a third party inspector ask for more then the adopted codes?

 

[raider1]

By what right does a third party inspector ask for more then the adopted codes?

I agree, I don't see this as being an enforceable policy.

Chris

 

[wbalsam1]

The company owner reserves the right to run his business within the confines of established law. It's the owner that "sees it fit" to create and enforce this policy with his employees. The inspectors and contractors have the freedom to not work for this company or not hire this company for inspections.

If the aggrieved party so desires, they can elect to not use the company and instead use one of the other companies doing business within the state.

I would say that the Residential Code at Table E3605..5.3 requires that if the OCPD is rated at 15 amperes than a #14 egc, phase and neutral are fine. Increasing the conductor size in a circuit while the OCPD matches the allowable ampacity is OK. I personally believe it's a good idea to indicate a reduced wire size used as travellers but not required by code.

In short, I gotta do what the boss wants. :smile:

 

[stickboy1375]

The inspection company I work for has a written policy that it's inspectors must follow with regard to this condition. To paraphrase it, it requires a tag to be placed in the panelboard where the affected branch circuit originates that indicates a lesser amperage/guage conductor has been utilized within the identified BC and cautions future workers, etc., not to increase the size of the OCPD.
The tag identifies the inspector and the installer/contractor.
Just this policy alone has been an effective deterrent often resulting in the installer up-sizing the conductor to match the rest of the circuit conductors.

SO what language is this tag suppose to be written in? :grin:

 

[stickboy1375]

Yes, it's true someone could chage out the breaker to a 20a. But then they would not fall under the definition of 'qualified personel.'

View attachment 1982 ..................


Makes sense to me...

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is done all the time when we account for voltage drop. Larger wire fed from a smaller breaker.

 

[wbalsam1]

SO what language is this tag suppose to be written in? :grin:

Fear! Fear is a great deterrent. :grin: So the company says "We're afraid you're going to come along later and see a 12 ga. conductor in the panel and mistakenly increase the size of the breaker to 20 amps, so we're going to put some fear into you by way of unnecessary manipulation thereby frightening you into compliance/submission when you already comply." :-? :-?