#14 pigtails on 20 amp circuits

[zinsco]

I understand according to 210.19 pig-tailing out to #14 on 20 amp circuits is not allowed, and the hole tap argument from table 210.24 doesn't work because a tap still has to have overcurrent protection somewhere and a pigtail doesn't.

But...........I don't like it. It doesn't seem right to me. If you can use 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp multioutlet circuit than you should be allowed to pigtail with 15 amp wire. If the wire can't handle the load, neither can the outlet.

If there is such concern that the wire will overheat than there should be equal concern for the outlets and they should be required to be 20 amp as well.

I know that almost all of you will probably disagree with me, and that I am setting myself up to get smashed by you all but there it is and there you have it.

I truly am interested to here all your thoughts on this, but I think it will take an awful lot to convince me that I am wrong.

Thanks

 

[mivey]

This ought to be good for a few posts. I just don't feel like getting into it right now. Kind of burned out on the topic. You can find many thoughts in some of the other threads while you wait for some other responses.

 

[winnie]

Well, '15A' receptacles are required to be rated for 20A feedthrough, and the contacts are essentially the same; the only difference is the 15A vs 20A _configuration_ (shape). So I don't really accept the argument about using 15A receptacles on a 20A circuit.

On the other hand, _switches_ are only required to be rated for the load served, with nothing said about the OCPD. This means that you could have a 5A switch feeding a 500W lamp, supplied by a 20A circuit, and it would be kosher.

On top of this, the 14ga wire actually has a current rating of 20A. The restriction of 14ga wire to 15A OCPD (for most circuits) has to do with aspects of protection other than ordinary overload.

I do not know the history of the restriction of 14ga conductors to 15A breakers.

-Jon

 

[LarryFine]

Zin, do you have a friend with the initials FP?


As Jon sorta said, for a given grade of receptacle, only the slot shape is different; they contain the same internal conductive parts.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Even if we accepted your argument that a 15 amp receptacle is just as dangerous a 14 protected at 20 amps, that would still lead us to the fact that all devices are housed in a 2-hr rated box. The wire is not. So even if they were equally dangerous, hte fact that a receptacle is in a box, greatly differentiates them.

 

[electricmanscott]

I understand according to 210.19 pig-tailing out to #14 on 20 amp circuits is not allowed, and the hole tap argument from table 210.24 doesn't work because a tap still has to have overcurrent protection somewhere and a pigtail doesn't.

But...........I don't like it. It doesn't seem right to me. If you can use 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp multioutlet circuit than you should be allowed to pigtail with 15 amp wire. If the wire can't handle the load, neither can the outlet.

Like it or not it's still a violation. There simple. This threads done. :grin:

 

[ultramegabob]

what I dont understand is why do you want to pigtail #14 onto #12 in the first place?

 

[norcal]

what I dont understand is why do you want to pigtail #14 onto #12 in the first place?

My guess is the OP does not wish to wrap the wire around the screws of cheap resi-grade receptacles......

 

[M. D.]

An oldie but a goodie

http://www.mikeholt.com/graphics/210-19dx1c.gif

 

[zinsco]

Even if we accepted your argument that a 15 amp receptacle is just as dangerous a 14 protected at 20 amps, that would still lead us to the fact that all devices are housed in a 2-hr rated box. The wire is not. So even if they were equally dangerous, hte fact that a receptacle is in a box, greatly differentiates them.

The pigtails are in the box also.

 

[zinsco]

what I dont understand is why do you want to pigtail #14 onto #12 in the first place?

Because it is much easier to fold the #14 wires into the box with the recept than with #12.

 

[zinsco]

I must concede to the fact that the outlets whether 20 amp or 15 amp are rated at 20 amps. That does sort of kill my argument. I actually thought of this just after I made my post and wondered if that was the case.

Still, for all practical purposes when you pigtail, the only load that is going to travel on those pigtailed wires and the outlet for that matter is what you plug into it. If you don't pigtail than you have the acumalated load of everything on that circuit.

Also, if an appliance draws more that 15 amps, it should be on a dedicated circuit anyway. So I do still think that pigtailing to #14 should be fine, but I agree it is a violation and the fact that the 15 amp outlets are rated at 20 amps means that the #14 is not just an extension of the outlet.

But it is interesting to make the argument that the #14 wire is actually rated at 20 amps and is just not legal to be used as the branch circuit conductors.

Again, I think it is safe and should be allowed.

 

[iwire]

Again, I think it is safe and should be allowed.

I bet it's 'safe' but why should it be allowed?

What is the hardship created by using full size conductors?




(By the way, we can use 15 amp rated switches on 20 amp circuits and we can connect 18 AWG fixture wires to 20 amp circuits. )

 

[zinsco]

I would not go so far as to call it a hardship.

It's just a lot easier to fold the wires. When your dealing with leaning over and around stuff in a cluttered kitchen replacing an outlet that had burnt because of a lose connection. Especially when there is more than 2 cables in there.

Look, you might want to call me a cry baby, but I just think if it is safe and it is easier than it should be allowed. The important thing is the pigtailing. That is what is never done in residential. Pigtailing reduces the amount of current running through the outlets and petty much stops lose connections, that is if the electrician twists his wires with his lineman pliers and makes a good splice.

80% of all my service calls are from lose connections. Either at the poorly designed stab on breakers or at a burnt outlet that was not pigtailed.

 

[LarryFine]

I would not go so far as to call it a hardship.

It's just a lot easier to fold the wires.

So, just make your pigtails of stranded #12 for 20a circuits. You can attach them to the receptacles first, and wirenut them to the box wires second.

 

[e57]

didn't we beat this topic to death last week?

 

[buldogg]

didn't we beat this topic to death last week?

Apparently not