14 tied to 12 on 20 amp breaker
- Thread starter bgreen42977
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I recall many discussions on whether a #14 is allowed on a 20A breaker'd circuit, with the consensus always being "no"... but I don't recall anyone bringing up the aspect of #14 as a branch-circuit tap conductor.
Chances are the consensus will still be "no". All I'm asking is if the current wording permits or prohibits a #14 branch-circuit tap to a 20A branch circuit. If need be, and if possible, put your precognitions aside and interpret the wording from a strictly literal viewpoint.
Just to prod the discussion along, why does Table 210.24 show that there can be a #14 tap on a 20A circuit???
Twoskinsoneman
Senior Member
- Location
- West Virginia, USA NEC: 2020
- Occupation
- Facility Senior Electrician
Here's an old thread I really enjoyed on the matter
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=114360
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=114360
That's appears to be a rather long thread. I started reading it and got to your post (#12). Got some work to do so I'll have to continue reading later...
...but if this is so plainly obvious as everyone makes it out to be, just tell me where in 210.19 there is a prohibition of #14 copper tap on a 20A circuit...???
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jetlag
Senior Member
- Location
- Eatonton, Georgia
For years all the ahj around here allowed us to run the #14 switch leg down to a switch and back on a 20 a # 12 circuit , that has been stoped years ago , if it is not a violation why was it ever stoped ? The only place I know you can run a #14 on a 20 amp breaker is on a motor load .
It was always a violation........... the AHJ probably misinterpreted the tap rules.
There's more than just motors that allow 14 on a 20.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
To appease some inspectors you could just put a tag on the wires saying this is a 15 amp circuit. Not necessary but not a bad idea.
djcrzysounds@yahoo.com
Member
- Location
- Scranton, Pa
I had a similar situation with the AHJ. He failed it stating "If and when the panel needs to get replaced the person doing the work will slam a 20 Amp breaker into the panel cause he sees 12 AWG wire." I can't say I blame him. I'd like to add to his comment that some "people" wouldn't even stop at a 20 Amp breaker. I've seen 25 Amp breakers and as much as 50 Amp breakers on a 12 AWG wire. (The owner claimed the 'electrician said he was installing high power heating circuits')..... Lets end this post with "You get what you pay for"
- Location
- Massachusetts
I will say I 'blame him'. That is foolish thinking on his part.
No competent electrician should be changing the size of a breaker or fuse without knowing about the circuit. Once you remove competent from the scenario all bets are off, no amount of labels or thinking ahead will stop the hack from hacking.
I have wired 15 amp 125 volt receptacles with 4 AWG all the way back to the panel, would that inspector assume the single pole 20 needs to be replaced with a single pole 90?
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Are we all competent? Wonder why the following was added to the 09 70E.:roll:
I had an inspection in a county south of here last week and asked the inspector to get his code book. He told me he doesn't carry one because he doesn't deal with 'Real' electricians!!!:-?
No, which is the reason most don't do brain surgery or plot space travel to the moon.
Roger
General consensus with some Code intent thrown in... has to be, because current (and past) Code wording does not fully support this interpretation.
- Location
- Massachusetts
And there you have why no one has jumped in here.
You have clearly made up your mind, I don't recall a time where you mind has been changed by others opinions so arguing with you is like arguing with Mike W.
Well I certainly can't say I'm suprisedAnd there you have why no one has jumped in here.
I've made up my mind that the Code wording does not fully support the consensus or intent. As for real life situations, I do not run any #14 on general purpose 20A branch circuits. Even recently told a friend he needed to change some 20A breakers to 15A breakers because the hack that rewire his house has #14 on general purpose 20A branch circuits.
My mindset and opinions are based on facts and authoritative opinions. Others are weighed accordinglyI don't recall a time where you mind has been changed by others opinions so arguing with you is like arguing with Mike W.
But FWIW, even Mike W. backed out of the last argument I participated in with him
- Location
- Massachusetts
It has happened in the past. (SABCs and DIY installed plug in under counter lights)
But winning by attrition is kind of a hollow victory.
Last I knew Mike Holt feels the wording does prohibit using 14 AWG taps on 20 amp GP circuits. Maybe you can email him and battle it out. :grin:
- Location
- Massachusetts
So there is no point at all in discussing it any further.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
I'm glad you see it my way
I read your post on this point and I see why you have a argument as to why or why not it is allowed, my personal opinion-no, am I smart enough to refute it- no. I will say: you are good.
Okay, time for the junior grades(me) to be shut up.
Do you ever feel like you are dealing with morons ? I called an inspector last week to discuss a hazardous situation that the service "electrician" was about to make worse. The inspectors responses were,"It's safer then it was" and "what should I do about it?" AHHHHH Last time I read the code "safer" didn't equal "SAFE" and if the inspector isn't going to do anything, who is ? Did I forget to mention, the inspector was an electrician before becoming an inspector.
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