1880's house ungrounded recp's

[shawnbebout]

So I got a message from a buddy. He bought a house from the 1880's, and takes possession of it next week. He want's to change out all the ungrounded recp's. I was worried I would have to rewire his whole damn house and did a quick forum search and saw that I can replace them with a properly labeled GFCI. The GFCI will still function properly correct?

The other problem is that somewhere along the way, the cold water pipe burst and they replaced it with a piece of hydraulic hose. So he's going to fix that as well. I was just curious of how much of the old pipe was still in contact with the ground. I believe it needs to be 10' correct?

My code book is at work, and I am a industrial/commercial electrician. I don't do much house work, mainly for family and friends.

 

[mbrooke]

GFCIs do not need a ground to work and are recognized as a way to replace ungrounded 2 prong receptacles in the NEC. You can feed through to other 3 prong outlets provided they are labelled "GFCI protected, no equipment ground". The stickers usually come inside the box.

 

[templdl]

GFCIs do not need a ground to work and are recognized as a way to replace ungrounded 2 prong receptacles in the NEC. You can feed through to other 3 prong outlets provided they are labelled "GFCI protected, no equipment ground". The stickers usually come inside the box.

I agree but without a ground I don,'t believe the tesdt button will function though.

 

[GoldDigger]

The test button that is built in works fine since it uses an internal resistor to bypass some current around the sensing coil.
But a plug-in tester will not work since it does not have access to the line side of the GFCI.

 

[mbrooke]

I agree but without a ground I don,'t believe the tesdt button will function though.

The test button should still function on the receptacle itself. the Imbalance is simply sent line to neutral. A plug in tester will however not work without a ground, however in any case one of those is technically not a sure-fire way to test a GFCI. Test and reset on the GFCI itself is always the way to go.

 

[iwire]

It is worth mentioning that 250.14 lists all the equipment the homeowner would not be allowed by the NEC to plug into these new non-grounded outlets.

If this matters will be up to the installer and homeowner.

 

[ramsy]

It is worth mentioning that 250.14 lists all the equipment the homeowner would not be allowed by the NEC to plug into these new non-grounded outlets.

Can someone post a link to this code, not available in my 2011 NEC

 

[jumper]

Can someone post a link to this code, not available in my 2011 NEC

Here ya go:

250.114 Equipment Connected by Cord and Plug. Under
any of the conditions described in 250.114(1) through (4),
exposed, normally non–current-carrying metal parts of
cord-and-plug-connected equipment shall be connected to
the equipment grounding conductor.

Exception: Listed tools, listed appliances, and listed equipment
covered in 250.114(2) through (4) shall not be required
to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor where
protected by a system of double insulation or its equivalent.
Double insulated equipment shall be distinctively marked.

(1) In hazardous (classified) locations (see Articles 500
through 517)

(2) Where operated at over 150 volts to ground

Exception No. 1: Motors, where guarded, shall not be required
to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.
Exception No. 2: Metal frames of electrically heated appliances,
exempted by special permission, shall not be required
to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor,
in which case the frames shall be permanently and
effectively insulated from ground.

(3) In residential occupancies:
a. Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners
b. Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines;
ranges; kitchen waste disposers; information
technology equipment; sump pumps and electrical
aquarium equipment
c. Hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and
fixed motor-operated tools, and light industrial
motor-operated tools
d. Motor-operated appliances of the following types:
hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and
wet scrubbers
e. Portable handlamps

(4) In other than residential occupancies:
a. Refrigerators, freezers, and air conditioners
b. Clothes-washing, clothes-drying, dish-washing machines;
information technology equipment; sump
pumps and electrical aquarium equipment
c. Hand-held motor-operated tools, stationary and
fixed motor-operated tools, and light industrial
motor-operated tools
d. Motor-operated appliances of the following types:
hedge clippers, lawn mowers, snow blowers, and
wet scrubbers
e. Portable handlamps
f. Cord-and-plug-connected appliances used in damp or
wet locations or by persons standing on the ground or
on metal floors or working inside of metal tanks or
boilers
g. Tools likely to be used in wet or conductive locations

Exception: Tools and portable handlamps likely to be used
in wet or conductive locations shall not be required to be
connected to an equipment grounding conductor where
supplied through an isolating transformer with an ungrounded
secondary of not over 50 volts.

 

[iwire]

Can someone post a link to this code, not available in my 2011 NEC

It's in the 2011, along with every code for many cycles.

 

[templdl]

The test button that is built in works fine since it uses an internal resistor to bypass some current around the sensing coil.
But a plug-in tester will not work since it does not have access to the line side of the GFCI.

Interesting, thanks.
Since GF sensing is essentially zero sequence comparing the line to the neutral current should the current be undalanced it woud be determined that the unbalanced current is returning to the source via the ground.
I'm intregued that the test push button would replicate a ground fault w/O an actual ground being present. But then again I have never had the opportunity to install and test a GFCI in an ungrounded system to check for myself. If I have the opportunity the next one that I install I'll avoid connecting the EGC first and then test the GFCI before attaching the EGC.

 

[roger]

It's in the 2011, along with every code for many cycles.

It is in mine.

Roger

 

[kwired]

Interesting, thanks.
Since GF sensing is essentially zero sequence comparing the line to the neutral current should the current be undalanced it woud be determined that the unbalanced current is returning to the source via the ground.
I'm intregued that the test push button would replicate a ground fault w/O an actual ground being present. But then again I have never had the opportunity to install and test a GFCI in an ungrounded system to check for myself. If I have the opportunity the next one that I install I'll avoid connecting the EGC first and then test the GFCI before attaching the EGC.

The test resistor is connected from Line 1 to Load 2 (or possibly Line 2 to Load 1- either way works), this this puts one current path inside the monitoring CT and the opposing current path outside the CT - causing a net rise on the CT monitoring circuit and causes a trip.

Add:
Here is an image I found that shows how the test button and test resistor are connected

 

[templdl]

The test resistor is connected from Line 1 to Load 2 (or possibly Line 2 to Load 1- either way works), this this puts one current path inside the monitoring CT and the opposing current path outside the CT - causing a net rise on the CT monitoring circuit and causes a trip.

Add:
Here is an image I found that shows how the test button and test resistor are connected

That makes perfect sense now! Thanks for taking the time to post the schematic for me. The test current is actually routed through the sensor to feign a ground fault.
I see that you are having an exciting Sunday too.

 

[kwired]

That makes perfect sense now! Thanks for taking the time to post the schematic for me. The test current is actually routed through the sensor to feign a ground fault.
I see that you are having an exciting Sunday too.

You are welcome, glad I could help.

 

[jumper]

It is worth mentioning that 250.14 lists all the equipment the homeowner would not be allowed by the NEC to plug into these new non-grounded outlets.

If this matters will be up to the installer and homeowner.

It's in the 2011, along with every code for many cycles.

It is in mine.

Roger

Bet you both a jelly doughnut that neither has a 250.14 in your 2011.

 

[ramsy]

Bet you both a jelly doughnut that neither has a 250.14 in your 2011.

Thanks Master Derek,

Don't worry about Bob & Roger, they know better than to give me anything, except static & grief.

 

[paul]

Bet you both a jelly doughnut that neither has a 250.14 in your 2011.

My code book goes from 250.12 to 250.20.

 

[jumper]

My code book goes from 250.12 to 250.20.

Is that mph or kph?

 

[brycenesbitt]

So I got a message from a buddy. He bought a house from the 1880's, and takes possession of it next week. He want's to change out all the ungrounded recp's. I was worried I would have to rewire his whole damn house and did a quick forum search and saw that I can replace them with a properly labeled GFCI. The GFCI will still function properly correct?

Correct NEC [406.3(D)(3)].
But take care when working with that old wire. Bending it out and back can crack it. I strongly recommend slipping a new sheath over: 125 °C shink wrap works well.

The other problem is that somewhere along the way, the cold water pipe burst and they replaced it with a piece of hydraulic hose. So he's going to fix that as well. I was just curious of how much of the old pipe was still in contact with the ground. I believe it needs to be 10' correct?

Why not just run a proper new ground rod at the service? An AFCI on the old circuits can't hurt.
And rewire any A/C, laundry or high drain device.

 

[iwire]

It's in the 2011, along with every code for many cycles.

It is in mine.

I agree with those smart guys above.

Bet you both a jelly doughnut that neither has a 250.14 in your 2011.

Due to the delays in shipping I would rather you send me a Dunkin Doughnuts gift card.

[Don't worry about Bob & Roger, they know better than to give me anything, except static & grief.

You call it grief, I call it truth you don't like to face.

As awesome as I am <jk> with the NEC you can't expect me to know your code book is screwed up.

My code book goes from 250.12 to 250.20.

Your book is defective.


From my 2011 NEC.