1880's house ungrounded recp's

[packersparky]

It is worth mentioning that 250.14 lists all the equipment the homeowner would not be allowed by the NEC to plug into these new non-grounded outlets.

If this matters will be up to the installer and homeowner.

Its 250.114, not 250.14.

 

[iwire]

Its 250.114, not 250.14.

DOH! :dunce:





Ramsey, Jumper and Paul, I apologize for busting your chops. You all were right and I had my head up my ...

 

[Badams]

It is worth mentioning that 250.14 lists all the equipment the homeowner would not be allowed by the NEC to plug into these new non-grounded outlets.

If this matters will be up to the installer and homeowner.

So 406.4(D)(2) allows replacement of non-grounding receptacles with a GFCI receptacle, and that GFCI can supply other grounding-type receptacles as long as they're marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground".

And 250.114 requires many types of residential cord and plug connected equipment to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.

What would be the point of that? Doesn't a GFCI without an EGC provide an equivalent level of personnel protection to a grounded type receptacle with an EGC? If a homeowner can plug in other cord and plug connected equipment (not listed in 250.114(3)), why would that equipment be safe to use? How would a homeowner reasonably be expected to understand that distinction?

 

[roger]

How would a homeowner reasonably be expected to understand that distinction?

The same way they are expected to always follow 210.21(B)(2).

The truth is, they can't be expected to understand or follow those rules so I don't know why the ink is wasted.

Roger

 

[jumper]

DOH! :dunce:





Ramsey, Jumper and Paul, I apologize for busting your chops. You all were right and I had my head up my ...

No need to apologize, it was just a typo and I was teasing about it.

I knew you meant 250.114 when you posted, I just could not resist being a joker after Roger chimed in.

 

[Pharon]

The other problem is that somewhere along the way, the cold water pipe burst and they replaced it with a piece of hydraulic hose. So he's going to fix that as well. I was just curious of how much of the old pipe was still in contact with the ground. I believe it needs to be 10' correct?

Yes. The connection also has to be made within 5 feet of where it enters the building, per 250.68(C)(1).

Why not just run a proper new ground rod at the service? An AFCI on the old circuits can't hurt.

I don't believe AFCI breakers will work on circuits with no equipment ground.

So 406.4(D)(2) allows replacement of non-grounding receptacles with a GFCI receptacle, and that GFCI can supply other grounding-type receptacles as long as they're marked "GFCI Protected" and "No Equipment Ground".

And 250.114 requires many types of residential cord and plug connected equipment to be connected to an equipment grounding conductor.

What would be the point of that? Doesn't a GFCI without an EGC provide an equivalent level of personnel protection to a grounded type receptacle with an EGC? If a homeowner can plug in other cord and plug connected equipment (not listed in 250.114(3)), why would that equipment be safe to use? How would a homeowner reasonably be expected to understand that distinction?

I agree with this line of reasoning. But technically there isn't an exception that allows no EGC if fed from a GFCI. But at the same time, I don't see a hazard, either.

 

[roger]

No need to apologize, it was just a typo and I was teasing about it.

I knew you meant 250.114 when you posted, I just could not resist being a joker after Roger chimed in.

And I thought I had a wink in there instead of a smile. :slaphead:

Roger

 

[jumper]

.
I don't believe AFCI breakers will work on circuits with no equipment ground.

Actually, if IIRC they will work without an EGC.

 

[jaylectricity]

I've never seen an afci breaker connected to the egc, so how would it know if there was one or not?

 

[Little Bill]

I've never seen an afci breaker connected to the egc, so how would it know if there was one or not?

The same way they know to trip in a new house when the lady plugs in her vacuum that worked fine in the old house!

Them AFCI critters are smart!!!:roll:

 

[growler]

So I got a message from a buddy. He bought a house from the 1880's, and takes possession of it next week. He want's to change out all the ungrounded recp's. I was worried I would have to rewire his whole damn house and did a quick forum search and saw that I can replace them with a properly labeled GFCI. The GFCI will still function properly correct?

A house built in the 1880s probably didn't get any electrical at that time. The electrical system was installed at a latter date. The thing to figure out is when and how the electrical system was installed and maintained.

A friend of mine bought an old house built around 1900 and wired around 1930-1940 and rigged all to hell after that. If you pulled all the bad wiring there wouldn't have been any left.

The first thing to do is inspect the wiring to see if it's safe. A GFCI will keep your friend from getting electrocuted but may not protect him from burning to death and even an arc fault may not prevent this.

Go in the attic and crawl space or basement and check the condition of the wiring. It may be rat chewed and spliced with anything and everything imaginable ( it happens). Or it may be in pretty good shape.