1930s school fire alarm

[James L]

I have been asked by my sons school to help figure out how to turn off the fire alarm system, so a couple of pull stations can be switched out.

There is no fire alarm panel that anyone can find, and there is no monitoring company involved.

Judging by the looks of the glass break devices, they appear to be simple momentary contact switches which are pressed in by the glass. This leads me to believe it is a simple line voltage system, with pull stations and glass break switches sending 120 volts to the sirens in the hallways

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Am I on the right track?

 

[zbang]

I think you need to do some wire tracing; even the the 30's there were FA panels. Could be as simple as a box with fuses and relays somewhere in the boiler room.

 

[gadfly56]

I have been asked by my sons school to help figure out how to turn off the fire alarm system, so a couple of pull stations can be switched out.

There is no fire alarm panel that anyone can find, and there is no monitoring company involved.

Judging by the looks of the glass break devices, they appear to be simple momentary contact switches which are pressed in by the glass. This leads me to believe it is a simple line voltage system, with pull stations and glass break switches sending 120 volts to the sirens in the hallways

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Am I on the right track?

It sounds like it might be just that. Any pics? Is there a manufacturer's name on any of the sirens or pull stations?

How big is this school, public or private? Once you start tinkering with this sort of thing, "you touch it, you own it" applies. You might suggest they go with a modern UL listed fire alarm control panel if only for the sake of your liability insurance. If the school is fully sprinklered, you won't have to add much in the way of detection if your jurisdiction follows the 2009 or earlier IBC.

 

[GoldDigger]

I think you need to do some wire tracing; even the the 30's there were FA panels. Could be as simple as a box with fuses and relays somewhere in the boiler room.

I think that the biggest problem would be figuring out which breaker feeds the system.
It is likely that there is exactly one feed point so that any switch pull will sound all of the sirens and horns. A panel, if there is one, would be primarily a set of terminal strips for putting all of the pulls in parallel and all of the annunciators in parallel. Relays would allow for more total annunciator current than the individual pull switches could carry.
But it is possible that all of the junctions are just in separate boxes in the walls. There still has to be one AC source somewhere though.

 

[James L]

I will take some pictures in the morning and try to post them. I appreciate the replies so far.

But in the old boiler room is where the original electrical service was located (s.e. corner of the building). Now the service is in the n.w. corner of the building, farthest corner from boiler room. Boilers are gone, too. In that boiler room, next to the original main panel, there are several disconnects, but there's no cabinet or other enclosure which might resemble a relay panel, I've scoured the entire building looking for such an animal. But I have not gone up into the roof hatch to look in the attic above the second floor.

Will definitely bring more info

 

[James L]

I think that the biggest problem would be figuring out which breaker feeds the system.
It is likely that there is exactly one feed point so that any switch pull will sound all of the sirens and horns. A panel, if there is one, would be primarily a set of terminal strips for putting all of the pulls in parallel and all of the annunciators in parallel. Relays would allow for more total annunciator current than the individual pull switches could carry.
But it is possible that all of the junctions are just in separate boxes in the walls. There still has to be one AC source somewhere though.

This was my line of thinking, minus the possibility of a panel (considering i couldn't find one)

 

[kwired]

What I find somewhat amazing is that the local fire marshal (or equivalent AHJ) hasn't required this system to be upgraded, or at least given some threat to order them to close the building if they don't make some changes. Similar systems were probably being required to be upgraded in many areas at least 40 years ago.

 

[James L]

What I find somewhat amazing is that the local fire marshal (or equivalent AHJ) hasn't required this system to be upgraded, or at least given some threat to order them to close the building if they don't make some changes. Similar systems were probably being required to be upgraded in many areas at least 40 years ago.

The fire marshall doesn't even require lighted exit lights, there is an exit door that has to be pulled in before the panic lever will engage, toys filling a fire exit pathway, exits blocked, and other stuff, too

But by golly, they'd better not have a box sitting on the floor in front of the breaker panel when he comes

 

[just the cowboy]

Some pull boxes had gears

Some pull boxes had gears

Some of the old pull boxes had a spring and gear system that would sound the alarm with a code 1-2-4 bongs repeat x number of times meant fire in xxx area and they did work at line voltage.

 

[gadfly56]

What I find somewhat amazing is that the local fire marshal (or equivalent AHJ) hasn't required this system to be upgraded, or at least given some threat to order them to close the building if they don't make some changes. Similar systems were probably being required to be upgraded in many areas at least 40 years ago.

Assuming your bewilderment is based on an entirely altruistic desire to enhance public safety and not grub some work, I am sympathetic. I don't know about Missouri or Kansas City, but here in NJ as long as the system was inspected, tested, and maintained in good working order, the fire official would have no grounds for demanding its replacement. Now, the state Department of Education or the Middle States Association Accreditation Committee or the insurance carrier may have other standards that could drive the replacement of the system in a school, but from a building/life safety code perspective you couldn't force a change.

 

[gadfly56]

The fire marshall doesn't even require lighted exit lights, there is an exit door that has to be pulled in before the panic lever will engage, toys filling a fire exit pathway, exits blocked, and other stuff, too

But by golly, they'd better not have a box sitting on the floor in front of the breaker panel when he comes

I hate to discourage any sense of civic-mindedness on your part, but it's starting to sound like you could be walking into a "no good deed goes unpunished" sort of situation.

 

[James L]

I tried to attach pictures from phone, not sure I did it right.

It's a very smal Christian school, which operates on a shoestring budget. Virtually everything I do on the building is done for free, and many times I donate the materials.

this is not a money-making venture for sure.

 

[James L]

One more..

 

[James L]

I have a couple of more pictures, but my phone doesn't want to upload them. I will try later after I get to a computer

The pictures I did upload are not oriented correctly. You need to tilt your head to the left

 

[Ragin Cajun]

RUN, don't walk AWAY!

Liability city. They will nail you to the school wall when anything happens.

And leave a solid paper trail recommending the school hire a FAS consultant ASAP.

 

[gadfly56]

One more..

I'm guessing that if you took some "Goof-Off" to the plate on the upper portion of that bell you might find a manufacturer's name underneath the paint.

 

[gadfly56]

I tried to attach pictures from phone, not sure I did it right.

It's a very smal Christian school, which operates on a shoestring budget. Virtually everything I do on the building is done for free, and many times I donate the materials.

this is not a money-making venture for sure.

OK, I get it, it's more of an act of charity than anything else. Even more important to be careful if you're not going to heed Ragin Cajun's advice.

I see from your photos that it looks like they've already run some Wiremold in the structure. If that's acceptable, get a small panel like a Silent Knight 5208, hook up some modern horn strobes, drop pull stations at the first floor exits and any upper story stairwell exits and call it a day. Materials for panel, 5 pulls, a couple of smokes, wire and Wiremold will be about $1,000 or so your cost, ROM. If you're donating your labor, have them run a bake sale to cover materials and call it good.

 

[kwired]

I hate to discourage any sense of civic-mindedness on your part, but it's starting to sound like you could be walking into a "no good deed goes unpunished" sort of situation.

I'm sure the rules vary from place to place but even if the building codes officials don't step in on existing items, the property owner/manager's insurance often wants to see things that impact safety of building occupants brought up to date at times.

 

[James L]

Trying a couple more pictures. I appreciate the response so far...

The gist of this whole exercise is that they do a manual fire drill every so often. They pull at a station to sound the alarm, and it is supposed to shut off when the lever is pushed back in (momentary contact). However, one of the levers does not want to act right all the time, they have to push-pull-push several times to get it to turn back off.

They want to have the regular maintenance man change out this pull switch, but they want the whole system turned off before he messes with it

They simply asked me to help figure out how to turn it off, although it's entirely likely I'll be there at that time, just in case. My thought was/is that it is likely a line voltage system fed from a single pole breaker.

 

[dkidd]

Some circuit tracers can work by connecting to any hot wire in a pull, and a convenient ground. You should then be able to locate the overcurrent device feeding it.