2" pvc 24"long above panel thru top plates for cable entry

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DrSparks

Senior Member
Location
Madison, WI, USA
In these parts we really only use RMC coming out of the meter if it's outdoors. Inside we use emt

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You really can't argue with that. I'm all for galvanized pipe. And if it's required then everyone is on an even playing field as far as bidding goes

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nickelec

Senior Member
Location
US
The funny thing about that is it's not required but it just became a standard I guess after year's of doing it. I do know that seu or any type of NM service cable is not acceptable

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DrSparks

Senior Member
Location
Madison, WI, USA
The funny thing about that is it's not required but it just became a standard I guess after year's of doing it. I do know that seu or any type of NM service cable is not acceptable

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Unfortunately the only standard in my market is how low can you get the price

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LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
I contend it is a dry location because the cable can't get wet. I doubt it could even get damp. It's fully covered by pipe, or a metal chase or both. Yes, it's entering the eave, but there is a weatherproof cover over it. The inspector did not agree with me, but that is my argument and I still think I'm right.
You're incorrect because "in a conduit" is not a location; the conductors are wherever the conduit is.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
I believe 312.5(C) is referring to open ended conduits only, not complete raceways. AFAIK it's legal to run conduit from a panel (emanating from the top, side, bottom, or back; surface-mounted or flush) through a structural ceiling as long as it terminates in j-box, panel, trough, or other approved container.
Methinks you nailed it, I went round/round, and ended up in notes to Chp 9>

(2) Table 1 applies only to complete conduit or tubing
systems and is not intended to apply to sections of
conduit or tubing used to protect exposed wiring from
physical damage.

~RJ~
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector
It's commonplace here to extend a raceway to the attic from a recessed panel. Our only requirement is that the raceway end in a box & cover and not be open ended.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I guess I'm being dense. I reread the article and I don't see anything to change what I said. Please specifically point out what you think I'm misstating.
I believe 312.5(C) is referring to open ended conduits only, not complete raceways. AFAIK it's legal to run conduit from a panel (emanating from the top, side, bottom, or back; surface-mounted or flush) through a structural ceiling as long as it terminates in j-box, panel, trough, or other approved container.
Bold items are what I see contradiction in what you said compared to what I read in that section.

Here is a portion of the 2014 wording of that section:

Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.


Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) and not more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all of the following conditions are met:


....


(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.
Note that it is in art 312 and only applies to cabinets cut out boxes or meter socket enclosures, and reiterates that in the main content before we get to the exception. This would exclude raceway types used as sleeve for a surface mounted device box something pretty commonly seen.

It clearly states top of a surface mounted enclousre in the exception - not the sides, bottom etc.

(b) clearly states it can not penetrate a structural ceiling.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
You're incorrect because "in a conduit" is not a location; the conductors are wherever the conduit is.
The metal chase which runs from the eave to the panel creates an indoor space which contains the cable and the partial raceway. While these are usually installed with a small (1/2") gap between the chase and the panel this doesn't change the fact that it's an indoor location anymore than the gap under a door changes it. And if that was the only hangup, that gap could easily be closed with caulk or a tighter fitting chase. The fact that the raceway extends up at least 18" means there is no chance of the cables getting wet.
 

DrSparks

Senior Member
Location
Madison, WI, USA
I contend it is a dry location because the cable can't get wet. I doubt it could even get damp. It's fully covered by pipe, or a metal chase or both. Yes, it's entering the eave, but there is a weatherproof cover over it. The inspector did not agree with me, but that is my argument and I still think I'm right.

BTW, He said if I built a box around it and stucco'ed the box, NM would be OK. Not sure what the difference is.
FYI underneath the eaves is considered a damp location not a wet location

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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
"underneath the eave" is very likely wet or damp. The chase in question is penetrating the "eave" to a dry location.
Somewhat questionable if it is damp with some ventilated soffit panels, though the reason for ventilating it is to help keep the wood construction materials from accumulating moisture and developing moisture related problems.

Whether or not inside of that chase is wet, damp, or dry, I really don't know what NEC would call it, I will say if it is outdoors around these parts it is subject to developing condensation within it at times.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
In my opinion, no more "indoor" than the interior of a conduit that is outdoors.
If I built a small storage shed by making three steel walls, attached it to the side of a block building, and throw a roof over it, would the interior of that shed be indoors? I think it would. Now compare that to a three sided metal chase, attached to the block, and pushed up against the eave. Same thing. An indoor space is any space protected from the weather.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
"underneath the eave" is very likely wet or damp. The chase in question is penetrating the "eave" to a dry location.
Somewhat questionable if it is damp with some ventilated soffit panels...
The attic is a dry location. The top of the ventilated soffit panels are in the attic. I don't think it's questionable at all. Water may occasionally penetrate the soffit panels. Still a dry location according to NEC definition :

Location, dry: ... may temporarily be subject to dampness or wetness...
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If I built a small storage shed by making three steel walls, attached it to the side of a block building, and throw a roof over it, would the interior of that shed be indoors? I think it would. Now compare that to a three sided metal chase, attached to the block, and pushed up against the eave. Same thing. An indoor space is any space protected from the weather.
A mini-shed? Is a conduit a mini-lighthouse?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
The attic is a dry location. The top of the ventilated soffit panels are in the attic. I don't think it's questionable at all. Water may occasionally penetrate the soffit panels. Still a dry location according to NEC definition :

Location, dry: ... may temporarily be subject to dampness or wetness...
I agree for the most part. I can see how some will question the area over ventilated soffit panels, but I also feel if that were truly a wet or damp location then the framing, roof sheathing, etc. would be required to be treated lumber and definitely not OSB for roof sheathing. This tells me it is intended to be considered a dry location. Dry locations can still experience wetness or dampness on occasion.

A mini-shed? Is a conduit a mini-lighthouse?
The conduit is being used as a sleeve and not as a "raceway", which complicates things.

Like he said if he builds something around the same cables the intention is to keep them dry. Yet if whatever he surrounds them with is just a sheet metal covered chase - there is still a good possibility of condensation forming inside, especially in the upper 2/3 of continental US.
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer - Power Systems
This is a 2 year old thread, so it is being closed.
Please feel free to start a new discussion.
 
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