200 amp minimum service for residential.

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jwelectric said:
One of the last houses I did was a custom built 2800 square foot with gas appliances. Home owner was involved from the foundation up. Had a lot of bells and whistles involved but a 125 amp service. A couple of years ago they installed a large pool with hot tub but guess what. The electrician also got a service change out of the deal. Wonder why, simply because I didn’t give them one for free when I wired the house originally. I did the calculation and installed accordingly with any thought of what if they want to expand. If they want to expand let them spend the money to do so.
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I can understand that, but as part of your professional calculation and recommendation, was it at least mentioned that a larger service would be needed if significant things were added later, even if you didn't explain the cost difference between then and later? It gives the appearance that maybe you hoped it would need upgraded because you'd get the work.

Does the underlined part of your quote contain a typo?
 
James L said:
Kansas City Power & Light will hook up a 100a service, however....

They require minimum 200a meter can, and minimum 3" pvc conduit for underground.
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Pretty much the same here with PSE, you have your choice of service, 200A or 400A. Think you can go higher for more $$, but no 'service' under 200A, Potelco truck have big spool of 4/0 Aluminum. You pay for 200A service minimum to the meter it appears.

https://pse.com/accountsandservices/Construction/Documents/1220.pdf
 
junkhound said:
Pretty much the same here with PSE, you have your choice of service, 200A or 400A. Think you can go higher for more $$, but no 'service' under 200A, Potelco truck have big spool of 4/0 Aluminum. You pay for 200A service minimum to the meter it appears.

https://pse.com/accountsandservices/Construction/Documents/1220.pdf
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Really they use 4/0 for a 200 a service. Here in CA you are lucky if you get #2al. LADWP uses load for service size not what size overcurrent device.
 
As one can easily see by reading this thread it is the mind set of electricians today to give away their trade for free. Name any other trade that does this.

Got a ticket and hired a lawyer for $1500 to represent me in court. I asked that young fellow if he thought it might be a good idea to do me a will because I might die before we went to court. He thought I was a very smart person but guess what, yep he charged me to write this will. He didn’t do it for free. :happysad:

A few years ago I was contacted to do a calculation on a very nice house on a lake. When I arrived the first thing that caught my eye was a CT can on the side of the house. Talked briefly with the homeowner and general contractor and was taken to the basement where there were four 200 amp panels. This house had all gas appliances. The calculated load was less than 200 amps but maybe the electrician was thinking that maybe someday this home owner was going to do his own waste water treatment, who knows.:?

The bottom line is his price was less than what I would have charged to install one single 200 amp service. It took me all day to explain to this homeowner that he only paid for the kilowatts used and the size of the service did not cost him more in electric bill as another electrician had told him it did. What the installation told me was the electrician that did the work had no clue on how to do a load calculation or was a complete idiot one or the other. :lol:
 
MAC702 said:
I can understand that, but as part of your professional calculation and recommendation, was it at least mentioned that a larger service would be needed if significant things were added later, even if you didn't explain the cost difference between then and later? It gives the appearance that maybe you hoped it would need upgraded because you'd get the work.

Does the underlined part of your quote contain a typo?
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I don't work for free. When I bought my truck the dealer didn't give me four extra tires because I might wear out the ones that came on it. He didn't give me extra oil because it would need a oil change.

If the home owner wants to add later then he will need to do a service change, I don't give him this service change for free. I charged for up sizing the service when I did contracting and I priced it just like I was doing a service change not just the cost difference. I don't give my trade away for free.
 
jwelectric said:
As one can easily see by reading this thread it is the mind set of electricians today to give away their trade for free. Name any other trade that does this....
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It's just that the one who answers my knee-mail told me to do unto others as I would have others do unto me.

It's not giving away your trade for free, it's just common decency, imo. And I'm pretty sure most guys would say that's one reason their customers keep calling them

And there are plenty of instances where it's common for people to suggest something more than you need right now because it will cost less now then waiting til later.

I've had more than one car which needed a new water pump, and the timing assembly had to be taken off to get to it. The first time, I was new to the town where I lived. A mechanic suggested that I put in a new timing belt even though the old one was not bad. He said "I've already got it all apart, the only thing it will cost you is the extra for the parts"

Knowing nothing about cars, and not trusting mechanics anyway, I got a second price on my water pump. I said nothing about the timing assembly to the second mechanic and he told me the exact same thing. Might as well put in a new timing belt because the labor is already being done to take out one and put one back in.

After I moved, I had a different car which needed a new water pump. And a third mechanic told me the same thing as the other two.
 
I think real estate agents are the driving force behind this. It's a selling point. They consistently tell home sellers and home buyers, for that matter, that having less than a 200A service does not improve the value of their house. Now, if you stop and think about this, a small Cape Cod house on a 50 x 50 lot, with natural gas service is more than likely not going to have a built-in pool, hot tub, electric range or oven, etc. and in all likelihood does not need more than a 100A service with 20 breaker spaces. Why would someone install a 200A service with a 40 space panel ? Just to fill up 10 slots and have 30 spares ?

Another tough concept to explain to HO's is that increasing their electric service does not solve the excessive load problems on their individual branch circuits. Yet, many EC's will just go ahead and bump up the service to make a few $$. In addition, I can't begin to tell you how many houses up in my area that have 200A MB panels with a 100A meter enclosure and no inspection stickers. Probably done by someone's brother's friend's father's cousin that knows something about electricity. Drives me crazy !!! :rant:
 
jwelectric said:
I don't give my trade away for free.
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Yet many EC's do. I try to educate the members in my contractor's association to be competitive but don't give the jobs away. It took a lot of time and effort to get our licenses. We're worth more that just making a few $$ on a job. Heck, I won't take a ladder off my truck for less than $100.:thumbsup:
 
jwelectric said:
I don't work for free. When I bought my truck the dealer didn't give me four extra tires because I might wear out the ones that came on it. He didn't give me extra oil because it would need a oil change.

If the home owner wants to add later then he will need to do a service change, I don't give him this service change for free. I charged for up sizing the service when I did contracting and I priced it just like I was doing a service change not just the cost difference. I don't give my trade away for free.
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As I mentioned, I understood this point that you've repeated. It was not my question, however.
 
jwelectric said:
I don't work for free. When I bought my truck the dealer didn't give me four extra tires because I might wear out the ones that came on it. He didn't give me extra oil because it would need a oil change.

If the home owner wants to add later then he will need to do a service change, I don't give him this service change for free. I charged for up sizing the service when I did contracting and I priced it just like I was doing a service change not just the cost difference. I don't give my trade away for free.
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Auto dealers may have given you free oil changes along with free inspections during that service - which they take advantage of potentially finding problems so they can sell you their services. Not saying they are trying to rip people off, but they want to find potential problems early and sell their services then to have customer break down and need immediate service from whoever is able to respond to the situation at the time.

Electricians can certainly do this to some extent if they want - many don't.

I have client I have been installing grain aeration control/monitoring equipment for. In the process I have come across three fans that definitely have worn bearing issues in the fan motors - you can bet I will mention these to the owner and he likely will tell me to go ahead and replace those bearings.
 
jwelectric said:
One of the last houses I did was a custom built 2800 square foot with gas appliances. Home owner was involved from the foundation up. Had a lot of bells and whistles involved but a 125 amp service. A couple of years ago they installed a large pool with hot tub but guess what. The electrician also got a service change out of the deal. Wonder why, simply because I didn’t give them one for free when I wired the house originally. I did the calculation and installed accordingly with any thought of what if they want to expand. If they want to expand let them spend the money to do so.
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Just my opinion but you did this customer a disservice by installing a 125 amp service. I don't see how charging for a 200 amp service is giving something away for free.
 
infinity said:
Just my opinion but you did this customer a disservice by installing a 125 amp service. I don't see how charging for a 200 amp service is giving something away for free.
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Hey, why buy a car with leather seats when you can get cloth and then have it changed to leather?
:roll:
 
I do not give anything away for free either, but I ALWAYS have the best interests of my customer in mind. That's how I get repeat business.

As I said, around here it has been 200 Amp services for 40 years. Anything less could be taking customers for a ride.:thumbsdown:
 
jwelectric said:
Got a ticket and hired a lawyer for $1500 to represent me in court. I asked that young fellow if he thought it might be a good idea to do me a will because I might die before we went to court. He thought I was a very smart person but guess what, yep he charged me to write this will. He didn’t do it for free. :happysad:
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Another lawyer may have thought this guy was giving it away because he always charges $2K to represent a client in traffic court.
 
infinity said:
Just my opinion but you did this customer a disservice by installing a 125 amp service. I don't see how charging for a 200 amp service is giving something away for free.
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Most panels around here end up either in the garage or the basement so I like to put full size 40 position panels in. Leave yourself a little working room.

I don't know of anyone giving 200 amp panels away. But it is cheaper to do it at the time of construction than later.
 
growler said:
Most panels around here end up either in the garage or the basement so I like to put full size 40 position panels in. Leave yourself a little working room.

I don't know of anyone giving 200 amp panels away. But it is cheaper to do it at the time of construction than later.
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Full size panels today are 84 position panels.;)
 
reduced cost of materials

reduced cost of materials

Could it be that forty years ago there was a big difference in the cost of 100, 150 and 200 amp panels as well as needed materials? If that were the case then sizing the service correctly would have been very important to the overall cost of the job.

Perhaps, today there is little difference so why bother and just install whatever is familiar and available i.e. 200 amps?
 
Greg1707 said:
Could it be that forty years ago there was a big difference in the cost of 100, 150 and 200 amp panels as well as needed materials? If that were the case then sizing the service correctly would have been very important to the overall cost of the job.

Perhaps, today there is little difference so why bother and just install whatever is familiar and available i.e. 200 amps?
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Especially if this were tract housing. A few dollars over 50 - 100 houses can add up.

Just went to HD, and a Square D 40-space 200 amp panel with (3) 20-amp single pole and (2) 30-amp double pole breakers is $127. The 150 amp 30-space panel with the same breakers is $142. The 100 amp 24-space panel with the same breakers is $64.
 
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