200 amp minimum service for residential.

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infinity said:
Just my opinion but you did this customer a disservice by installing a 125 amp service. I don't see how charging for a 200 amp service is giving something away for free.
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Most electricians in my area do residential bids by the square foot and blindly install a 200 amp service. Many will do cable and telephone boxes for free in order to get the bid. :ashamed1:

When I did a house I also did a load calculation for the service. If the homeowner or builder wanted anything larger I charged and I mean I charged. I didn’t just add the price difference of the two. My business mind sees doing anything less as giving my work away although most think they are doing some service to the customer by doing so. :happysad:

Using the mentality of most small residential electrical contractors I think the Dodge place did me a disservice by selling me my 2500 with a gas engine instead of a diesel. Those idiots wanted to cheat me out of $8000 just to install the diesel engine when if they were giving me good customer service it would have been installed for free.:rant:

I suppose all those years of doing multifamily cause me to lose touch with a 1400 square foot house on one acre lot needing a 320 continuous service. Yes I did an inspection on one just like this last week. Maybe they are going to get an electric car, lawn mower, and other items that will need all that power. I can’t help but wonder just how they are going to be able to afford the electric bill for all that current. :?
 
We still install 100 amp services as needed. 95%+ of the homes in my own neighborhood have 100 amp services, mine included. They are small (under 1200 sq ft) and we have gas service. There is absolutely no need for a 200 amp service. As a related side note, a few blocks away from me is a street with 11 homes on one 50 kva transformer.
 
kwired said:
Haven't checked recently, but used to get 150 or 200 amp main breaker QO panels with same number of branch spaces for nearly identical prices at supply house that is a Square D authorized distributor.

When you have a large order from an authorized distributor you order not only panels and breakers, but anything else Square D makes that you may need for the job. Your price comes from Square D not the supply house, and is for the entire order. If all you have is panels and breakers you may get the bill of material for at least half what you would if you came in and randomly picked up same items over duration of the project.
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Problem is for most of us we can't even get close to the minimum order values to get that extraordinary pricing.
 
peter d said:
We still install 100 amp services as needed. 95%+ of the homes in my own neighborhood have 100 amp services, mine included. They are small (under 1200 sq ft) and we have gas service. There is absolutely no need for a 200 amp service. As a related side note, a few blocks away from me is a street with 11 homes on one 50 kva transformer.
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Those homes could be fused at 40amps and the main would never blow. While the scope of this forum is not to violate code, the NEC load calcs are often 2 to 3x the actual load which is why POCOs can get away with equipment that appears under sized to us.
 
peter d said:
Problem is for most of us we can't even get close to the minimum order values to get that extraordinary pricing.
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What is the minimum?

Some of it depends on what default pricing level they may you set up with for your normal purchases. I have had times where all that I wanted was loadcenters and breakers - may not get much of a price break at all unless you are ordering maybe 20+ loadcenters.

Throw in things like meter centers, I-line distribution panels, aux gutters, motor controls, etc. and you get a huge discount compared to if you ordered each of those items separately.
 
200 amp service is very marginally more expensive than a 100 amp. The flexibility it provides is well worth the money in my opinion especially when people are thinking about doing a solar array where some companies won't even hook you up unless you have a 200 amp service. I agree that it may be overkill for some homes but I feel like it is something that provides an added value if the customer is ever thinking about expanding onto a home or adding an outbuilding. The money you save with a 100 amp will long be spent when you don't have the means or room to expand.
 
crispysonofa said:
200 amp service is very marginally more expensive than a 100 amp. The flexibility it provides is well worth the money in my opinion especially when people are thinking about doing a solar array where some companies won't even hook you up unless you have a 200 amp service. I agree that it may be overkill for some homes but I feel like it is something that provides an added value if the customer is ever thinking about expanding onto a home or adding an outbuilding. The money you save with a 100 amp will long be spent when you don't have the means or room to expand.
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I don't get that at all, wouldn't that be a situation where there is additional money to make when doing such an install? Why would you tell them no and then one of your competitors sells them a new service plus the solar array?
 
UP selling

UP selling

I think this conversation has taken two different tracks. The first track --what is the properly sized service for a house according to NEC calculations?


The second track is "how I like to sell service changes" to customers.

For me, I am inclined to do a calculation and then tell the customer they need a 100 amp service or whatever.

Others, like to tell the customer that they should go for a 200 amp service because it may be useful in the future.
 
Greg1707 said:
I think this conversation has taken two different tracks. The first track --what is the properly sized service for a house according to NEC calculations?


The second track is "how I like to sell service changes" to customers.

For me, I am inclined to do a calculation and then tell the customer they need a 100 amp service or whatever.

Others, like to tell the customer that they should go for a 200 amp service because it may be useful in the future.
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There also simply presenting both options to the customer, which the price for each, and let them decide to save money now or later.

Either way, I'm paid for what I do, and the customer has gotten a professional opinion.
 
crispysonofa said:
200 amp service is very marginally more expensive than a 100 amp. The flexibility it provides is well worth the money in my opinion especially when people are thinking about doing a solar array where some companies won't even hook you up unless you have a 200 amp service. I agree that it may be overkill for some homes but I feel like it is something that provides an added value if the customer is ever thinking about expanding onto a home or adding an outbuilding. The money you save with a 100 amp will long be spent when you don't have the means or room to expand.
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There are loads of solar installations in my area on 100 amp services. Not sure what company would refuse to do a solar install because of it.
 
kwired said:
What is the minimum?

Some of it depends on what default pricing level they may you set up with for your normal purchases. I have had times where all that I wanted was loadcenters and breakers - may not get much of a price break at all unless you are ordering maybe 20+ loadcenters.

Throw in things like meter centers, I-line distribution panels, aux gutters, motor controls, etc. and you get a huge discount compared to if you ordered each of those items separately.
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That's my point - most smallish contractors aren't buying the commercial and industrial gear, so they aren't able to get good pricing on loadcenters and the like.
 
I'm a small contractor. 2 full time employees and 1 part time when needed. We do small commercial projects and custom homes. No track or multi family new construction.

Buying material from HD would be like buying all my work clothes from Nieman Marcus. HD is extremely expensive for 99% of their electrical items.

We get SPA pricing for material from a number of manufactures including T&B, Legrand and Square D. Even without the SPA pricing the wholesalers basic contractors prices are much less than HD. About the only items HD is competitive on is 12-2 and 14-2 NM.

I think the big problem is many contractors use HD as their primary source and go to the wholesale house to get the items they can't get at HD. The wholesale house has no incentive to give better pricing to someone that is only buying a few items. The same contractors are also just dealing with the counter guys that have no real authority to make good pricing adjustments. You need to talk to the branch manager to set up a good pricing matrix or get assigned an outside sales rep to handle your account.
 
curt swartz said:
I'm a small contractor. 2 full time employees and 1 part time when needed. We do small commercial projects and custom homes. No track or multi family new construction.

Buying material from HD would be like buying all my work clothes from Nieman Marcus. HD is extremely expensive for 99% of their electrical items.

We get SPA pricing for material from a number of manufactures including T&B, Legrand and Square D. Even without the SPA pricing the wholesalers basic contractors prices are much less than HD. About the only items HD is competitive on is 12-2 and 14-2 NM.

I think the big problem is many contractors use HD as their primary source and go to the wholesale house to get the items they can't get at HD. The wholesale house has no incentive to give better pricing to someone that is only buying a few items. The same contractors are also just dealing with the counter guys that have no real authority to make good pricing adjustments. You need to talk to the branch manager to set up a good pricing matrix or get assigned an outside sales rep to handle your account.
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SPA pricing? Never heard that term before. Can you give a few examples of what you pay for basic items with this pricing?
 
SPA = Special Pricing Authorizing

Its basically an agreement with the manufactures to sell items at special lower price usually below the wholesalers cost. The manufacture reduces the cost when the items are sold to contractors that have price agreements.

A few examples off the top of my head are:

Example 1: HD in my area wants $44 for a 20-40 Homeline Loadcenter. I get it for $30

Example 2: HD in my area wants $3.43 for a Steel City 4sq Deep box with bracket. I get the same Steel City box for $1.50

Example 3: One of the common Combination Service Entrance Devices (Underground Pull Section, Meter Socket, Main Breaker and 30-42 Loadcenter) is around $180 contractor counter price at the wholesale house. HD has it for $164. We pay $120

Example 3: HD sell 1/2" steel set screw EMT connectors for $2.05/5 ($.41/each) We get them for $.11/each.

If you tried to get the SPA pricing without an agreement its not going to happen. Most of the time the SPA price is below the Wholesalers cost.
 
curt swartz said:
SPA = Special Pricing Authorizing

Its basically an agreement with the manufactures to sell items at special lower price usually below the wholesalers cost. The manufacture reduces the cost when the items are sold to contractors that have price agreements.

A few examples off the top of my head are:

Example 1: HD in my area wants $44 for a 20-40 Homeline Loadcenter. I get it for $30

Example 2: HD in my area wants $3.43 for a Steel City 4sq Deep box with bracket. I get the same Steel City box for $1.50

Example 3: One of the common Combination Service Entrance Devices (Underground Pull Section, Meter Socket, Main Breaker and 30-42 Loadcenter) is around $180 contractor counter price at the wholesale house. HD has it for $164. We pay $120

Example 3: HD sell 1/2" steel set screw EMT connectors for $2.05/5 ($.41/each) We get them for $.11/each.

If you tried to get the SPA pricing without an agreement its not going to happen. Most of the time the SPA price is below the Wholesalers cost.
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I'm assuming you're held to minimum purchase quantities for SPA.
 
peter d said:
I'm assuming you're held to minimum purchase quantities for SPA.
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As I recall, it's usually based on quarterly or annual quantities/dollar value, not necessarily per purchase order although there may be a floor on dollar value.
 
James L said:
I've been told at their Pro desk that if you can find it, they can get it - anything. And that they'll beat the best price you get by 10%

Call 'em and ask. You just might save a bundle
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I have a conscience. I don’t like stripping my supply houses of their amenities and the going to HD to have their prices beat by 10%. I know my supply houses can’t beat HD on coils of roamex cable so I just automatically by that at HD. For everything else I go to my supply houses. They’re local and they work hard for your business.
 
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