200 amp minimum service for residential.

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peter d said:
Some do, some don't. In general I am completely disgusted with suppliers. They are a necessary evil unfortunately.
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I understand your frustration. Some of the “super big” supply houses will screw up your order every time. When you deal with a moderately sized supply house they’re generally family owned and work hard for their money. Just my opinion.
 
goldstar said:
I understand your frustration. Some of the “super big” supply houses will screw up your order every time. When you deal with a moderately sized supply house they’re generally family owned and work hard for their money. Just my opinion.
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We have two locally owned suppliers left. One is awful, the other is average. Some days they are good, other days they are horrible. The rest are the regional and national chain places and none of them are particularly good.
 
peter d said:
We have two locally owned suppliers left. One is awful, the other is average. Some days they are good, other days they are horrible. The rest are the regional and national chain places and none of them are particularly good.
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My "local" supply houses have been bought out by larger more regional companies. I can't say I am all that impressed with them. Sure there is a lot of stock, but doesn't mean it will be at my local branch. Want it ASAP - no problem - will be extra shipping charges to transfer it via UPS, or you can wait a week for internal transfer trucks to get it to your branch if it is at a branch on the other end of the region.
 
jwelectric said:
If I am spending it back in electric bill what have I gained? :?
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I think he meant that you'd be spending half on electricity for the car than you would on gasoline if it were "old school". I don't know how accurate that is, though, and it really depends on what sort of gasoline powered vehicle you are talking about.
 
ggunn said:
I think he meant that you'd be spending half on electricity for the car than you would on gasoline if it were "old school". I don't know how accurate that is, though, and it really depends on what sort of gasoline powered vehicle you are talking about.
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correct, doesn't factor in what kind of cargo load you may be able to carry, cost of replacing batteries when they fail, which is probably much shorter time then before conventional gasoline engine may need a major overhaul or replacement, if properly cared for.
 
kwired said:
correct, doesn't factor in what kind of cargo load you may be able to carry, cost of replacing batteries when they fail, which is probably much shorter time then before conventional gasoline engine may need a major overhaul or replacement, if properly cared for.
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Exactly - you need to look at TCO.
In 2004 I needed a car for basic transportation - just get me to work and back. I bought a Chevy Aveo for $8100. A Prius stickered for $22K and people were paying up from there. I averaged 31 mpg. In 100,000 miles I would spend about $8K in fuel at 2.50 per gallon. There is no way the Prius could possibly make up the difference.
 
retirede said:
Exactly - you need to look at TCO.
In 2004 I needed a car for basic transportation - just get me to work and back. I bought a Chevy Aveo for $8100. A Prius stickered for $22K and people were paying up from there. I averaged 31 mpg. In 100,000 miles I would spend about $8K in fuel at 2.50 per gallon. There is no way the Prius could possibly make up the difference.
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I'll go you one better. When my mom went to trade in her Buick with just over 100k miles on it the dealership would only give her $1500 for it. She knew my car at the time was nearing the end of its life so she offered to sell hers to me for $1500. That was 10 years and 110k miles ago and I am still driving it. It doesn't get particularly great gas mileage, but so what?
 
ggunn said:
I'll go you one better. When my mom went to trade in her Buick with just over 100k miles on it the dealership would only give her $1500 for it. She knew my car at the time was nearing the end of its life so she offered to sell hers to me for $1500. That was 10 years and 110k miles ago and I am still driving it. It doesn't get particularly great gas mileage, but so what?
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It cost you a lot less to insure it then it would a new car as well I'd think, for one thing you probably had a liability only type of policy.
 
ggunn said:
I'll go you one better. When my mom went to trade in her Buick with just over 100k miles on it the dealership would only give her $1500 for it. She knew my car at the time was nearing the end of its life so she offered to sell hers to me for $1500. That was 10 years and 110k miles ago and I am still driving it. It doesn't get particularly great gas mileage, but so what?
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Yep - I would have fared even better buying a $2000 used car that only got 15-20 mpg.
 
ggunn said:
I think he meant that you'd be spending half on electricity for the car than you would on gasoline if it were "old school". I don't know how accurate that is, though, and it really depends on what sort of gasoline powered vehicle you are talking about.
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kwired said:
correct, doesn't factor in what kind of cargo load you may be able to carry, cost of replacing batteries when they fail, which is probably much shorter time then before conventional gasoline engine may need a major overhaul or replacement, if properly cared for.
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For any given vehicle & load -- roadster, locomotive, or anything in between -- the per-mile cost of electricity is about half the per-mile cost of gasoline. The main reason for that is the ~70% efficiency of an electric powertrain, compared with the 7% typical of an automotive gasoline engine.
The lifetime of traction batteries is considerably greater than the lifetime of starting-lighting-ignition batteries because they're much more carefully charged, discharged and balanced. Remarkably sophisticated algorithms monitor & control their use, and thermal management is often included.

Then again, plain ol' ordinary SLI batteries now last about twice as long as when I first started installing them. (late 1970s) Charge algorithms are used there, too, and engines are smaller & start more easily, using less battery energy.
 
If you came to my area and put a 200 amp service on a 1000 square foot house with gas heat and appliances and window a/c's, you would be considered crazy.
 
drcampbell said:
For any given vehicle & load -- roadster, locomotive, or anything in between -- the per-mile cost of electricity is about half the per-mile cost of gasoline. The main reason for that is the ~70% efficiency of an electric powertrain, compared with the 7% typical of an automotive gasoline engine.
The lifetime of traction batteries is considerably greater than the lifetime of starting-lighting-ignition batteries because they're much more carefully charged, discharged and balanced. Remarkably sophisticated algorithms monitor & control their use, and thermal management is often included.
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All true as far as I know, but a $1500 price tag for a car that has lasted 10 years (so far) is a hard thing to offset by fuel savings.
 
peter d said:
If you came to my area and put a 200 amp service on a 1000 square foot house with gas heat and appliances and window a/c's, you would be considered crazy.
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So you are putting in 400 amp services right? Maybe even three phase just in case.:D
 
MAC702 said:
Stand by for the government(s) to realize that they are making less money on fuel taxes and they find other ways to compensate.
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Perhaps with good reason. Roadway infrastructure is traditionally paid for with gasoline taxes, but with cars getting better and better gasoline mileage and the advent of hybrid and all-electric vehicles, revenue will drop while the cost of building roads will not. Of course, an unintended consequence of switching to a "pay by the mile" roadway tax may be to diminish the incentive to drive these vehicles.
 
ggunn said:
All true as far as I know, but a $1500 price tag for a car that has lasted 10 years (so far) is a hard thing to offset by fuel savings.
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I was answering the "Electric or Infernal-Combustion?" question. You're answering the "New or Used?" question.

Old cars will eventually be retired and replaced with new cars. A significant number of them will be electric, and it just doesn't seem reasonable to install new electrical service that's incapable of powering them. Maybe a 100-amp panel will handle the load in small house in Maine or Minnesota with gas appliances and a small (or no) air conditioner, but that's not going to be the case very often.

Maybe a 100-amp panel in the house and another 100-amp panel in the garage, with separate feeders from the same meter, will be the economical & expedient route for houses with detached garages.
 
ggunn said:
Perhaps with good reason. Roadway infrastructure is traditionally paid for with gasoline taxes, but with cars getting better and better gasoline mileage and the advent of hybrid and all-electric vehicles, revenue will drop while the cost of building roads will not. Of course, an unintended consequence of switching to a "pay by the mile" roadway tax may be to diminish the incentive to drive these vehicles.
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Agreed. The added cost of the additional tax to be added later needs to be figured when people brag about how much gas money their green car is saving.
 
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